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Hi guys, last saturday i had a match vs a friend of mine on my local store, it was CSM vs BA, the game went pretty well and we had lots of fun, however... i had doubt on a rule regarding cover save to tanks, i know that if it's obscured at least 50% it gets the obscured save and the save depends on the terrain that obscure the target. However here is the scenario, i had my rhino with a combimelta shooting another rhino 5" away, since i wanted to avoid the BA disembarking far from my zerks which were next to the rhino i decided to surround in wit hmy zerks, so left 3 zerks infront of it, 2 and abaddon on one side and 1 guy on the back of it, our rhinos were facing each other so it was his rhino, 3 zerks and my rhino. I shoot hit and penetrate my friend claims 4+ obscured save... so here is my question did it indeed have the cover save i mean... sure my marines are easily 50% of the height of the rhino, still there were only 3 of them infront wasnt a 100% clear shot but still, i dunno if that would grant it what do you guys think?, i allowed it since it was a friendly game and besides... it was a 2k points and all he could kill was my daemon prince and 1 rhino before he got annihilated

It's 50% of the facing you are shooting at. If 50% of the side you were shooting was covered by zerkers, then it gets a save.

So you're asking us to mentally picture a Rhino, mentally picture some SPESS MEHREENS standing in front of it, just to tell you whether or not you, who were actually there, sitting in front of it, looking at it with your goddamn eyes, should have given the Rhino a cover save?

Dude. Take a picture. Print it out. Take some crayons, color in the obscured part. Is that 50%?

Or do what the rest of us do and use your damn eyes to determine this when it actually happens.

This is not a question for YMDC.

If you guys cannot agree, or it is close to 50%, take a 5+ instead

SaintHazard wrote:So you're asking us to mentally picture a Rhino, mentally picture some SPESS MEHREENS standing in front of it, just to tell you whether or not you, who were actually there, sitting in front of it, looking at it with your goddamn eyes, should have given the Rhino a cover save?

Dude. Take a picture. Print it out. Take some crayons, color in the obscured part. Is that 50%?

Or do what the rest of us do and use your damn eyes to determine this when it actually happens.

This is not a question for YMDC.

I have to agree with this.

There is no way for us to help, you have to get down and check.

I think the core of this question though is firing through your own models at a vehicle does not confer a cover save.

Otherwise, you and your opponent need to get down and look at it. I usually let my opponents decide what is obscured or not for my shots. I find they are generally pretty honest.

calypso2ts wrote:I think the core of this question though is firing through your own models at a vehicle does not confer a cover save.

Otherwise, you and your opponent need to get down and look at it. I usually let my opponents decide what is obscured or not for my shots. I find they are generally pretty honest.

If a model fires a combi-melta through a unit of friendly troops, they grant a cover save if they're obscuring at least 50% of the facing at which the combi-melta is being fired. The only exception to this is when the friendly troops are part of the same unit as the firer (not the case here) wherein they are not considered for the purposes of LOS and cover, per shooting rules in the BRB. I'm too lazy to look up a page, so you get none.

calypso2ts wrote:I think the core of this question though is firing through your own models at a vehicle does not confer a cover save.

But it does, unless those models are in the firing unit. - page 22 brb

SaintHazard wrote:So you're asking us to mentally picture a Rhino, mentally picture some SPESS MEHREENS standing in front of it, just to tell you whether or not you, who were actually there, sitting in front of it, looking at it with your goddamn eyes, should have given the Rhino a cover save?

Dude. Take a picture. Print it out. Take some crayons, color in the obscured part. Is that 50%?

Or do what the rest of us do and use your damn eyes to determine this when it actually happens.

This is not a question for YMDC.

The question is fine. We get a similar question on a regular basis. Easily asked, and easily answered.

Your answer is not. If you can not respond in a civil fashion, don't bother.

kirsanth wrote:But it does, unless those models are in the firing unit. - page 22 brb

Maybe I am confused about the way cover saves are generated. I was under the impression a vehicle needs to be less than 50% visible in the facing being fired at in order for the vehicle to obtain obscured status and to take a 4+ save against a shooting attack. I realize there are other rules that also grant obscured status.

However, if your troops block less than 50% of the vehicle facing - the vehicle will not be able to take an 'obscured' cover save due to these troops...correct?

That's correct.

What Kirsanth was disagreeing with was your apparent claim that your own troops don't confer cover. They do, if they and/or anything else in the way blocks more than 50% of the vehicle.

SaintHazard wrote:So you're asking us to mentally picture a Rhino, mentally picture some SPESS MEHREENS standing in front of it, just to tell you whether or not you, who were actually there, sitting in front of it, looking at it with your goddamn eyes, should have given the Rhino a cover save?

Dude. Take a picture. Print it out. Take some crayons, color in the obscured part. Is that 50%?

Or do what the rest of us do and use your damn eyes to determine this when it actually happens.

This is not a question for YMDC.

I'm sorry, you are right is kinda hard to imagine on space the dimensions of such hardly seen miniatures, but that’s ok, i'll help you out .

Let’s assume that the space marines occupy the space of a cylinder (you know SaintHazard, the shape of a soda can, i know is hard but try to keep up), so if we see it from a single point of view we see a rectangle (i'll assume you know this one), the space marines are roughly 3.3cm tall and 1.5cm wide, let’s assume the zerks with their khornish horns have 3.5 cm, i said there were 3 zerks so let’s add that up...
We get a bigger rectangle which now is 3.3 tall and 4.5 wide, we multiply these number to obtain the area which is 14.85 cm2. Now let’s move to the rhino, the rhino is aprox. 4.5 cm tall and 7.2cm wide again, roughly, which gives us an area of 32.4 cm2, so now a lil advance stuff four you Saint, just make a leap of faith with me 14.85cm2 is 45.83% of the front view, so its below the 50% and i'm not even counting the gaps on the legs and the obvious fact that the marines doesn’t occupy the whole area of these rectangles. I knew that then w/o the need to do the math, and my doubt is still the same, since you see i was asking if you would grant a cover save due to the fact that the marines aren´t obviously one next to the other but rather in a formation, standing 1" of each other which if you consider it as part of the area occupied by the unit it does pass the 50%. When a tank is obscured by terrain is usually easier since there isn’t any formation, there is just a piece of rock, a wall, some trees, and it doesn’t leave gaps to be taken into consideration for obscuring.

So I could be a dick like you said using pics and coloring out the area to obtain the same result, however I was not going to do that in the middle of a game.

So I guess I simplify even more the question since now I realize it was too much for you, do you count the models as a solid area with the gaps between each unit to determine if a tank is obscured or just give and approximation of what can you actually see of the tank?

Oh and btw the shot doesn't actually passes thru the units since being a combimelta it is pintle mounted and shoots above the level of the marines.

Lord Yayula wrote:Oh and btw the shot doesn't actually passes thru the units since being a combimelta it is pintle mounted and shoots above the level of the marines.

If that is the case, then there would be no cover for firing through the sqaud.

Lord Yayula wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:So you're asking us to mentally picture a Rhino, mentally picture some SPESS MEHREENS standing in front of it, just to tell you whether or not you, who were actually there, sitting in front of it, looking at it with your goddamn eyes, should have given the Rhino a cover save?

Dude. Take a picture. Print it out. Take some crayons, color in the obscured part. Is that 50%?

Or do what the rest of us do and use your damn eyes to determine this when it actually happens.

This is not a question for YMDC.

I'm sorry, you are right is kinda hard to imagine on space the dimensions of such hardly seen miniatures, but that’s ok, i'll help you out .

Let’s assume that the space marines occupy the space of a cylinder (you know SaintHazard, the shape of a soda can, i know is hard but try to keep up), so if we see it from a single point of view we see a rectangle (i'll assume you know this one), the space marines are roughly 3.3cm tall and 1.5cm wide, let’s assume the zerks with their khornish horns have 3.5 cm, i said there were 3 zerks so let’s add that up...
We get a bigger rectangle which now is 3.3 tall and 4.5 wide, we multiply these number to obtain the area which is 14.85 cm2. Now let’s move to the rhino, the rhino is aprox. 4.5 cm tall and 7.2cm wide again, roughly, which gives us an area of 32.4 cm2, so now a lil advance stuff four you Saint, just make a leap of faith with me 14.85cm2 is 45.83% of the front view, so its below the 50% and i'm not even counting the gaps on the legs and the obvious fact that the marines doesn’t occupy the whole area of these rectangles. I knew that then w/o the need to do the math, and my doubt is still the same, since you see i was asking if you would grant a cover save due to the fact that the marines aren´t obviously one next to the other but rather in a formation, standing 1" of each other which if you consider it as part of the area occupied by the unit it does pass the 50%. When a tank is obscured by terrain is usually easier since there isn’t any formation, there is just a piece of rock, a wall, some trees, and it doesn’t leave gaps to be taken into consideration for obscuring.

So I could be a dick like you said using pics and coloring out the area to obtain the same result, however I was not going to do that in the middle of a game.

So I guess I simplify even more the question since now I realize it was too much for you, do you count the models as a solid area with the gaps between each unit to determine if a tank is obscured or just give and approximation of what can you actually see of the tank?

Oh and btw the shot doesn't actually passes thru the units since being a combimelta it is pintle mounted and shoots above the level of the marines.

Vehicles get cover based on the actual, solid, real world blockage of LoS to them. In other words, if you can see between the legs of an infantry unit, you can shoot between their legs. This also applies to shooting at Monstrous Creatures.

Infantry get cover based on the imaginary, ragged topped wall defined by their heads and the outermost figures in the unit. You would need to be above their heads to avoid a cover save.

Please don't take a crack back at the other users, even if they take a crack at you. The thing to do is click the yellow alert button

This applies to everyone BTW.

The rhino should have its weapon mounted above the head of the marines, so it seems unlikely that the zerkers would block enough. Shooting straight on might be close, but from over top of the marines I don't really think they would block enough.

However, you really have to get down and look at it, and any answer we give you will simply be the rules you use to determine the particular circumstance, not a hard "yes" or "no". I.e: models only occupy the actual space they occupy, so spaces in legs, arms etc don't block LOS.

insaniak wrote:That's correct.

What Kirsanth was disagreeing with was your apparent claim that your own troops don't confer cover. They do, if they and/or anything else in the way blocks more than 50% of the vehicle.

Gotcha, reread my post and I definitely implied that was the case. Thanks for clarifying.

Not the greatest question, but I suppose yes?

Soooo, is this what we are saying?
It is possible to shoot through your own troops at a vehicle, and not give the vehicle a cover save.

And if you are forced to shoot through your own troops at an enemy non-vehicle then you must give the enemy non-vehicle a cover save.

In both case "own troops" mean different unit.

Yes. Oddly enough that is clearly written in the rules....if a vehicle isnt 50% obscured, then it doesnt get a save

Firstly, a unit in the way does not create a wall as tall as the models, all of the gaps between them, around them, etc are areas not in cover. It is really hard to get 50% coverage from infantry.

Secondly, from the view of the combi-melta, was the rhino 50% covered? I would imagine not since the combi-melta is high enough to see plenty of the top of the target rhino - especially at such short range.

Scott-S6 wrote:Firstly, a unit in the way does not create a wall as tall as the models, all of the gaps between them, around them, etc are areas not in cover. It is really hard to get 50% coverage from infantry.

Secondly, from the view of the combi-melta, was the rhino 50% covered? I would imagine not since the combi-melta is high enough to see plenty of the top of the target rhino - especially at such short range.

This brings up an interesting point.

If I were to have my Long Fangs at an elevated firing position that I can clearly see 100% of a Rhino facing me, but his front armor is competely covered by say a wall, would said Rhino get a cover save?

From true LOS, the rhino is completely unobscured however the armor facing is completely obscured.

I am at work, but I think the Rhino would not get a cover save and the penetration would be on the facing armor, despite being obscured.

Brother Ramses wrote:If I were to have my Long Fangs at an elevated firing position that I can clearly see 100% of a Rhino facing me, but his front armor is competely covered by say a wall, would said Rhino get a cover save?

Yes, as more than 50% of the facing you are in is obscured.

Ok, was wondering if there was a difference between true LOS and obscurement with regard to what armor facing.

Ramses,

Assuming you are in the front arc, he would get an obscure save. Even better for him is say you see his side armor and not his front but are in the front facing, he gets +1 to his obscure save (probably a 3+) for the extreme angle.

Brother Ramses wrote:If I were to have my Long Fangs at an elevated firing position that I can clearly see 100% of a Rhino facing me, but his front armor is competely covered by say a wall, would said Rhino get a cover save?

How are you seeing 100% of the rhino if the front is covered?

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:If I were to have my Long Fangs at an elevated firing position that I can clearly see 100% of a Rhino facing me, but his front armor is competely covered by say a wall, would said Rhino get a cover save?

How are you seeing 100% of the rhino if the front is covered?

maybe he was talking about something like this



the front is covered,but the LF los is not blocked by the marines

Gotta love Paint...
Depending on what facing you class the top of a vehicle as (rear, side or front, if at all) then I offer another solution, similar to pdawg's.
The rules state that if you cannot see any part of the facing you are in, but can see another facing of the vehicle (in this case the top), then you fire against the facing you are in, but the vehicle gains a 3+ cover save due to the extreme angle of the shot.
Back to the point of whether or not you class the top as a facing, this could result in some potential weird-ness, because, if, for example, you do not count the top as a facing, and yet you are in a situation similar to that of the one described by Rameses, where your LF is above the rhino and smack-bang in the middle (so not able to see any facings, even the sides) would you be able to shoot at all, seeing as you could not, technically, see any facings?
I am now open to beat-downs, flames, accuations, etc

In the paint diagram you can see way more than 50% so the target is not obscured.

The wall does not cover all of the front facing so he doesn't get the 3+ either.