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This is my non-competative Salamander forces. I have the option of fielding either A or B (although they are not very different). Which list do you think is more effective?
Main difference is the presense of a TFC or more speeders and upgrades.


List A

Vulkan-190pts

5x TH SS terms -200pts
Land raider redeemer dedicated, MM, extra armor- 265pts

5x TH SS terms -200pts
Land Raider redeemer , MM, Extra armor-265pts

10 Tactical marines, Sarge has power weapon/bolt pistol, flamer, Missile launcher- 185pts
Razorback dedicated, + storm bolter- 50pts

10 Tactical marines, Sarge has power weapon/bolt pistol, flamer, Missile launcher- 185pts
Razorback dedicated, + storm bolter- 50pts

2x Land speeders with MM - 120pts

1x Land Speeder with MM/HF- 70pts

1x Land Speeder with MM/HF- 70pts


List B

Vulkan-190pts

5x TH SS terms -200pts
Land raider redeemer dedicated, MM, extra armor- 265pts

5x TH SS terms -200pts
Land Raider redeemer , MM, Extra armor-265pts

10 Tactical marines, Sarge has chainsword/bolt pistol, flamer, Missile launcher- 185pts
Razorback dedicated 40pts

10 Tactical marines, Sarge has chainsword/bolt pistol, flamer, Missile launcher- 185pts
Razorback dedicated 40pts

1x Land Speeder with MM/HF- 70pts

1x Land Speeder with MM/HF- 70pts

1x Land Speeder with MM/HF- 70pts

Thunderfire Cannon

Your lists are all kinds of confusing to me. Why do the Razors have storm bolters on them?, why a Thunderfire Cannon? why no combi's?

Drop the TFC and the extra storm bolters, switch the razors to Rhinos, give each sergeant a combi flamer, upgrade both the single weapon speeders to have both (HF/MM), split them into 3 units and add a librarian with nullzone and the Avenger to go with the other hammernator squad, or even with vulcan (no TDA means you both fit). This should give you null zone and some anti-psyker. He will be vulnerable without TDA+SS (worth the 40 points if you can find it somewhere, imo) but should still add quite a bit to the effectiveness of Vulcan and the hammies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or use C, lol

Razors have storm bolters on them because they are defensive and can fire with the Heavy bolter. Thunderfire cannon because I want a techmarine (fluff) and its effective if it doesnt get killed first turn.

Don't let people talk you out of the TFC with arguments of ineffectiveness. They can usually out range many weapons and drop a hurting on horde armies. Can even hurt MEQ's blown out of a transport with S6 rounds.

List C is by far superior to the other two. Ironclads are pure awesome and the list gives you enough flexibility and tools to handle pretty much any opponent. I've never really liked speeders that much but they will work well with this list I think.

List C just looks a lot harder to defend against. Vulkan army's can lay a lot of hurt with all their TL stuff. But three drop pods on you distracts a lot of opponents to take heat off your rhinos. Solo Land Speeders would cause headaches if they got in some lucky positions to drop pie plates or break transports.

The first two lists are not terrible. It's just two squads of Terminators, both with LR transport (both being redeemers no less) Just looks like a big point sink from a tactical standpoint. It's a pretty short ranged super attack machine.

I think others mentioned it. But You have to take Rhino's if your transporting more than 6 units. Rhino's are good hardy and cheap vehicles. Always worth their points.

Clearly list C is the better option of the three you posted. I do like dual Land Raider lists, but they are quite expensive and compromise your scoring capabilities because of the number of points you spend on them. That said, do you have any Vindicators? They work very well to draw fire from the Land Raider and they are an excellent short ranged threat that your opponent cannot ignore. I've recommended this style list many times, and it's usually well received. Here's an example:

Vulkan - 190
5 Assault Terminators (5x TH/SS) - 200
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod) - 150
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod) - 150
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Rhino) - 220
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Rhino) - 220
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Flamer, Drop Pod) - 205
Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-Melta, Extra Armor) - 265
Vindicator (Siege Shield) - 125
Vindicator (Siege Shield) - 125
Total 1,850

It's similar to your 3rd list but it trades out the Ironclads for normal Dreadnoughts to save points, and replaces the Land Speeders (which are not particularly fluffy for Salamanders) for Vindicators.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, so you can gut it and re-arrange it how you like! Hope that helps!

Edited List B


Im curious on why everyone is picking C. I have tried it on vassal numerous times, and I found the Ironclads never performing for their points costs (they have too few attacks in close combat. 3 or 4 on the charge is nowhere near enough when termies have 10, 15 on charge at -2 STR), and the drop-pods would split my forces and feed the enemy kill points. It was a nightmare when I fought certain reserve armies (daemons) who gave up first turn because I would basicly have to drop my pods empty in the field and walk my ironclads on from reserve.

The Redeemer and the terminators would always pick up the slack the dreadnoughts left, thats why I figured dropping them and getting more terminators.

Well, DP Assaults are terrible against ninja armies like Demons and HC Tyranids, but wreck havoc on lists that have to set up or advance quickly, like SW, BA and to some extent IG.
I think you are looking at the battle myopically, that the Ironclads "Didn't make up the points" and the redeemers and hammernators came in to clean up because they are a superior use of points, while ignoring the fact that the whole point of the dreads dropping in is to gum up the other army, throw off their game and make them lose focus on the real threat, the Deathstar LRR rolling up on them from the far board edge. That is the whole point of an army like this, to allow your amazing units to come in and tear them up. Cause believe me, if allowed to focus fire on your land raiders or to delay them from getting into their business, they would.

Just because something did not do a whole lot of killing in a list does not mean it wasn't used to advantage. Sometimes redirecting firepower away from your other, more valuable units is just as important as smashing face.

That said, I still think the Ironclads would be better off as normal Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers. They shouldn't be used for close combat, but rather for close ranged fire support. The Multi-Melta can be 6" further away from your opponent than a Meltagun and still deal damage effectively, and while it won't stand up in melee as long that's not the point. The Dreadnoughts should be podding in on a flank to bust open a nasty transport or an ordnance piece while drawing fire away from the advancing Land Raider(s). This is part of the reason I run the style of list I posted above, because the Dreadnoughts and Vindicators together provide enough of a threat for your opponent to have to make some serious choices about where his shots are going to go. If he ignores the Dreadnoughts he has a pair of Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers attached to walking sledgehammers on his flank, if he ignores the Vindicators he has a pair of S10 AP2 pie plates running him down, and if he ignores the Land Raider he has the Terminators crunching his infantry to pieces while their transport fires off Marine killing flamers into his lines. If he focuses on all three he's not likely to neutralize all threats, and if he keys in on only one the other two will have their way with him.

The strategy is not infallible and it's really just my opinion of how I like to play Vanilla Marines, but I do find it to be quite effective against all comers. Just my thoughts.

Just a quick point... Squads have to be 6 men or less to take a rzorback. So you're gunna have to change those to a rhino. :0)

Page 134 of the SM codex: "May select a Rhino or a Razorback. If the squad numbers ten models, may take a drop pod (see page 135 for points costs)"

No restriction to taking a razorback. Taking the razor because I always combat squad (5 missiles in cover, 5+sarge and flamer in razor)

Badgerous One wrote:Just a quick point... Squads have to be 6 men or less to take a rzorback. So you're gunna have to change those to a rhino. :0)

That was a 4th edition rule, and some of the older independent chapter codices still have that wording, but the 5th edition Space Marines Codex, as well as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, all allow squads of any size to take any dedicated transport listed for their unit even if they are too large to fit. This means 10 man squads can take Razorbacks, and 10 man Terminator squads can take a Land Raider, even though neither of them fit.

Presumably the reason for this is Combat Squads, which allows half the squad to ride inside the transport and the other half to hoof it (or climb inside a different transport). For instance, I have a unit of 10 Assault Terminators that take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport. I also take a Land Raider as Heavy Support, but since the one is a Dedicated Transport I can now fit the two Predators I wanted to take as well, and because the Terminators are a single unit I can fit the two Dreadnoughts I wanted to take. The Terminators Combat Squad, and one of them starts the game inside the Dedicated Transport while the other elects to start inside the non-dedicated Land Raider (which they can do since it's not dedicated to any unit).

The new codices have a LOT more flexibility for force organization than the old ones, which I think is a big improvement over previous editions of the game!

Removed C. Although I know C was the best, it will be a while before i can get those models to make the complete list. For know I wanna see what is better to use for now, list A or B.

scubasteve04 wrote:Page 134 of the SM codex: "May select a Rhino or a Razorback. If the squad numbers ten models, may take a drop pod (see page 135 for points costs)"

No restriction to taking a razorback. Taking the razor because I always combat squad (5 missiles in cover, 5+sarge and flamer in razor)

you know i never actually noticed. Since i always take rhinos I can honestly say i hadn't even looked at a razoback since 4th ed. My big fat bad.

*edits my awful spelling*

I voted for list B.
The thunderfire cannon is nice vs hordes or units in cover.