Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've got a rules question, about firing arcs and the Vendetta.

I played a guy last weeked who had an immobilized Vendetta. He wanted to shoot a model that I had on the other side of the model then the lascannon (the lascannon on the side of the model, near the cockpit). If you drew line of site from the lascannon to my model it went through the vendetta. He stated it had a 45 degree arc and could shoot through the model. I told him no way a lascannon is shooting through the cockpit/front of the model. It was a tourney environment, so I offered to get a judge and he relented and didn't roll for it.

Who was right? Was I being an idiot, or him being beardy?

If the hull of the vehicle blocks LOS, you may not fire. However, if he could see the tiniest sliver of your model from that lascannon's barrel, he had LOS and could fire - but you'd get a 4+ cover save.

He was right in that the weapon has a 45 degree firing arc, but wrong in that he thought he could magically see through the intervening hull.

If the weapon is intended to be mounted so it can turn, it will have a fire arc such that it can cover the entire area it can turn towards and fire. If the turret is glued in place (old Fire Prisms, for example), then the turret is still treated as being turned, even though it physically can't.

The model may still pose limitations to the arc of fire, and the arc of fire on some weapons may be greater than what is strictly described. See page 59.
In short, if the model is in the way, it's in the way and you can't shoot in that direction.

Page 58 of the main rules even has a picture showing you were correct.

Just to expand on this:

With TLOS, can you see through a transparent part of a model, or is it considered solid and blocking to LOS?

Grakmar wrote:Just to expand on this:

With TLOS, can you see through a transparent part of a model, or is it considered solid and blocking to LOS?

You just answered your own question. Can you see through transparent objects?

The answer to my question is the answer to your question.

SaintHazard wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Just to expand on this:

With TLOS, can you see through a transparent part of a model, or is it considered solid and blocking to LOS?

You just answered your own question. Can you see through transparent objects?

The answer to my question is the answer to your question.

Good to know. I can't imagine this coming up in a real game, but if it does, I'll be prepared. Thanks!

Lots of people try to twist and turn TLOS to deny LOS or other tomfoolery.

The bottom line of TLOS is, "Can the model see what you want to shoot at?"

Regardless of what else is going on, the answer to that question is the answer to the question, "Can the model shoot?"

It's really that simple... and it's why I love TLOS. If my Broadsides can see the tiniest sliver of your Land Raider's hull, you bet your ass it'll be a smoking pile by the end of the turn.

Ugh, Broadsides. I hate railguns sooooo much! They need to be seriously nerfed!!!

(Well, not really, the Tau need all the love they can get. I'm just sick of Railguns nuking my Fire Prisms first turn.)

My Broadsides are one of the few reasons I am able to love my Tau, from a rules standpoint.

SaintHazard wrote:

My Broadsides are one of the few reasons I am able to love my Tau, from a rules standpoint.

We're in danger of veering dangerously off topic here, but do you run them with in squads with marker drones, or solo?

Topic's basically done. Question answered and all.

But no, marker drones are ridiculously expensive for a single markerlight shot. I run'em with shield drones. Makes them nigh impossible to kill.

SaintHazard wrote:Topic's basically done. Question answered and all.

But no, marker drones are ridiculously expensive for a single markerlight shot. I run'em with shield drones. Makes them nigh impossible to kill.

My Wolf Guard in Drop Pod disagree.

From your description (and a quick look at a proxy) it sounds like your opponent was taking the 45* arc to mean 45* to either side. This is incorrect. Weapons have a total 45* arc(or 22.5* to either side)and from where the Lascannon is in comparison to the rest of the hull the only way a model could be hidden from view by the Cockpit is if the target is outside of the 22.5* side arc to begin with.

Kommissar Kel wrote:From your description (and a quick look at a proxy) it sounds like your opponent was taking the 45* arc to mean 45* to either side. This is incorrect. Weapons have a total 45* arc(or 22.5* to either side)and from where the Lascannon is in comparison to the rest of the hull the only way a model could be hidden from view by the Cockpit is if the target is outside of the 22.5* side arc to begin with.

It was within the "arc" of 22.5 per side. The issue is, if a line was drawn between the gun and the model he was shooting at, the front of the vendetta (nose) blocked it. The vehicle was immobilized, on the ground, not in the air with a rake to it.

Actually, that's technically illegal as well - nothing in the rules tells you to take the vehicle off its flying base when it becomes immobilized. It's often PLAYED that way, but RAW, removing the flyer from its base for any reason is illegal.

Just FYI.

Personally, I don't play it that way, and have yet to go up against an opponent that has an issue with it. But if you ever come across an opponent who does, be warned that they're technically right.

SaintHazard wrote:
The bottom line of TLOS is, "Can the model see what you want to shoot at?"

Which is why you should never use real mirrors in 40k terrain

Actually, that gives me an awesome and thoroughly confusing idea for a Tzeentch-themed 'Hall of Mirrors' table...

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, that's technically illegal as well - nothing in the rules tells you to take the vehicle off its flying base when it becomes immobilized. It's often PLAYED that way, but RAW, removing the flyer from its base for any reason is illegal.

Actually, p71 tells us to remove the model's base when a skimmer is immobilised, if possible. It also tells us to leave the base on if it's glued in place, which you should be doing by RAW anyway (page 3).

So, end result is the same, but it's semantics

I believe you are mistaken Saint, It says in the rules "If possible, you may set a skimmer down, off its flying base, when it is immobilised. If this is immpossible, it is perfectly fine to leave it there, the vehicle may have damaged engines, but its anti grav is still intact" or something along those lines.


Either way, I would also have to disagree on your transparency thing. Although there is no RAW way of working it out, you can never shoot straight through stuff, If there was a big block of cover in the middle of a gaming board with an inch of glass in it (for some reason) I wouldnt let anyone shoot through it.


Just my 2 cents

Jaon wrote:I believe you are mistaken Saint, It says in the rules "If possible, you may set a skimmer down, off its flying base, when it is immobilised. If this is immpossible, it is perfectly fine to leave it there, the vehicle may have damaged engines, but its anti grav is still intact" or something along those lines.


Either way, I would also have to disagree on your transparency thing. Although there is no RAW way of working it out, you can never shoot straight through stuff, If there was a big block of cover in the middle of a gaming board with an inch of glass in it (for some reason) I wouldnt let anyone shoot through it.


Just my 2 cents

Except that it also tells you to keep it on its base if it's glued to it, and page 3 tells you to glue it to its base.

Edit: Looks like Cheexsta beat me to it.

I'm modelling my Vendetta's to have one of the third set of TL Lascannons on each side of the cockpit(thats two under each wing, one on each side of the cockpit, for clarification). If only one of the two TL lascannons on the cockpit could see it, would it fire as TL lascannons, a single lascannon, or do both of the lascannons have to have LOS?

Nosferatu2113 wrote:I'm modelling my Vendetta's to have one of the third set of TL Lascannons on each side of the cockpit(thats two under each wing, one on each side of the cockpit, for clarification). If only one of the two TL lascannons on the cockpit could see it, would it fire as TL lascannons, a single lascannon, or do both of the lascannons have to have LOS?

Isn't that already how it is on the model?

But only one of the barrels needs LOS - only one having LOS doesn't make the weapon no longer twin-linked.

Having a twin-linked weapon on either side of the cockpit does indeed give you an advantage, in that you can effectively see "around" your own hull, but it's legal.

SaintHazard wrote:

Nosferatu2113 wrote:I'm modelling my Vendetta's to have one of the third set of TL Lascannons on each side of the cockpit(thats two under each wing, one on each side of the cockpit, for clarification). If only one of the two TL lascannons on the cockpit could see it, would it fire as TL lascannons, a single lascannon, or do both of the lascannons have to have LOS?

Isn't that already how it is on the model?

No, it isn't - the Vendetta kit has two lascannons in the right-hand housing.

Scott-S6 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Nosferatu2113 wrote:I'm modelling my Vendetta's to have one of the third set of TL Lascannons on each side of the cockpit(thats two under each wing, one on each side of the cockpit, for clarification). If only one of the two TL lascannons on the cockpit could see it, would it fire as TL lascannons, a single lascannon, or do both of the lascannons have to have LOS?

Isn't that already how it is on the model?

No, it isn't - the Vendetta kit has two lascannons in the right-hand housing.

Gotcha.

On mirrors and LOS- it states you must see the *model* not the model's reflection ;-)

Technically, everything you see is a reflection

Thanks for the clarifaction all.

ok, this might be a little off topic, but i feel i need to say it anyways, after looking in both of my rulebooks (black reach mini and full size one) the mini implies that hull mounts can turn 45 either way where full size says 45 total...the pictures are different...which is confusing sinced i thought they were identical rulebooks...

jordanis wrote:ok, this might be a little off topic, but i feel i need to say it anyways, after looking in both of my rulebooks (black reach mini and full size one) the mini implies that hull mounts can turn 45 either way where full size says 45 total...the pictures are different...which is confusing sinced i thought they were identical rulebooks...

All hull-mounted weapons have a 45 degree arc of fire. I think you'll find there is no such thing in the entire game as a "90 degree arc of fire" unless it's a product of the maximum rotation of a sponson, or something similar - in which case it's not a 90 degree arc of fire (as no model is accurate down to the micrometer) but an arc of fire that constitutes the maximum rotation of the sponson.

And if you need help with what "arc of fire" means, look up "arc" in a math textbook.

just pointing out that the mini states there is a 90 degree arc...thats where maybe the confusion originated from...i use the full size book for everything and dont even consult my mini, but many of the people i play with only have the mini, so they tend to think that hull moounts have 90 degree arcs,

jordanis wrote:just pointing out that the mini states there is a 90 degree arc...thats where maybe the confusion originated from...i use the full size book for everything and dont even consult my mini, but many of the people i play with only have the mini, so they tend to think that hull moounts have 90 degree arcs,

No it doesn't. I have the small rulebook open in front of me and nowhere does it say anything at all about a 90 degree arc. Those words are literally not in this book. It says 45 degrees, just like the big rulebook. The picture even shows a 45 degree arc. There is no reason whatsoever for confusion - it couldn't possibly be more clear.