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The process of WBB can get a little hairy, and the way the rule was written has not aged well imho, so here are a few thoughts I had on changing not the functionality, but the ease of playing WBB:

Remove casualties as normal. Models (w/ Necron rule) that were killed by shooting attacks, terrain, or CC attacks that allow an armour save are placed off to the side. At the start of the turn, roll WBB for these models. Any that "get back up" do so on a 4+. These models then become part of any unit of the same models (e.g. Warriors to Warriors, Flayed Ones to Flayed Ones, etc), by placing them in coherency with the selected unit. If no models cannot be placed, the leftover models are destroyed and may not WBB again. Models that fail the roll are simply destroyed as normal.

Res Orb would retain the same functionality. Models killed near it would always be placed off to the side and return via WBB.

Lord would retain his normal rules for getting up.

Tomb Spyder would change to allow all WBB rolls to be re-rolled, but the reroll is only successful on a 6. (maybe 5+).

Easier?

This is really wierd, why do this?

So if a squad of warriors dies in the bottom right corner of the board except for one, those other ones can be put into a unit in the top left corner of the board?

Not only does it not make sence, it also is very wierd in general. Just keep the current rules they work fine.

Well, in my experience, it's always been a pain to measure each model's range to a living identical model, followed by brutal arguments about sweeping advance, and then a long debate about whether all the models that get up join the falling back squad that runs off the table, killing the entire necron army.

Imho it's a pain in the ass. A system (maybe different from what I suggested) that does not bypass the rules for removing casualites, clarifies when you can get WBB, and makes it easier to to allocate the resurrected models without complex measuring would be much nicer.

The fact that our necron player keeps his warrior squads really close together makes this really annoying. Regardless of the tactical implications of him doing so, we constantly have to figure out how his dead models will jump around between his squads, since they're often very nearly equidistant from different units.

My other more OTT idea was simply that all dead necrons get up on a 4+, exactly where they died, and immediately rejoin their unit (possibly out of coherency), if it's still alive. No other restrictions, except Necrons w/i 6" of an enemy model get up on a 5+.

In this case, res-orb and tomb-spyders would have to change dramatically.

So you want Necrons to get even weaker?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Presumably what I'm suggesting would go hand in hand with other changes, and not just be a vacuum alteration.

But whatever. People don't seem to like it, and that's fine.

I'm just tired of getting in a shouting match every time I decimate my necron opponent in CC and he wants to escape my Sweeping advance, or when he gets back 75% of his dead Warriors, which promptly join a falling back unit and are instantly destroyed. And measuring to every warrior squad to see where models go ain't no fun either, when my opponent builds formations of dudes that would make M.C. Escher proud.

I don't think WBB prevents a sweeping advance does it?

liam0404 wrote:I don't think WBB prevents a sweeping advance does it?

No, but some argue otherwise due to the way WBB treats "dead" models, among other things.

In a sweeping advance, the models just drop down where they are, and if there is another unit with units of the same type within 6", they take their WBB roles.

and you're making Crons weaker by making them take 5+ saves if the enemy is within a certain range. And since really the only way to easily wipe them out is by getting close, that kinda makes you're underpowering them.

and making them come up within coherency like you mentioned at the top of the page, makes that even worse, because if a unit is wiped like that, very few will be in range to get up.

How about instead they just make WBB a FNP roll? The resorb could just allow FNP rolls all the time.

Seems pretty easy.

grayspark wrote:In a sweeping advance, the models just drop down where they are, and if there is another unit with units of the same type within 6", they take their WBB roles.

and you're making Crons weaker by making them take 5+ saves if the enemy is within a certain range. And since really the only way to easily wipe them out is by getting close, that kinda makes you're underpowering them.

and making them come up within coherency like you mentioned at the top of the page, makes that even worse, because if a unit is wiped like that, very few will be in range to get up.

The point of my second post was to remove ALL restrictions on WBB. There would no longer be any "range" for WBB. Models would get up and instantly rejoin their unit. This would, of course, mean that units out of coherency would have to move to get back into coherency, but that's usually around 1 move. Also, ID and power weapons would have no effect, meaning you could give the Res Orb an effect like: models near a Res Orb WBB on a 3+, and tomb spyders could grant an auto-WBB for each wound they have remaining, or something to that effect.

I guess I really just don't like the current restrictions, and I think those should change, but I don't want it to devolve into FNP, and I definitely think SA should still wipe them out.

But of course, by the time Necrons get an update, everyone's going to be so much more powerful in 5th ed, they'll probably just make all the Necrons T5 with FNP, Res Orb means they can always use FNP, and Tomb Spyders modify it to a 3+ save, Monliths grant a reroll. ...and SA would still wipe them out.

Casualties sustained are rolled for at the end of a turn *yours and opponents* maintain distance limitation but increase range to 12", tomb spyder increased to 18", normal restrictions regarding instant death and cc attacks ignoring armor saves. There, a delayed roll that allows tactical use of casualty removal and if anyone is smart enough there will be a unit of the same type to WBB the losses if a unit is wiped by shooting/assault.

No FnP gimmick as it kills the character of the army. It fits the theme of Necrons quickly repairing themselves after damage sustained and everyone is happy.

Xca|iber wrote:

liam0404 wrote:I don't think WBB prevents a sweeping advance does it?

No, but some argue otherwise due to the way WBB treats "dead" models, among other things.

Which is funny because in older rule books they specifically stated "WBB" as one of the things you can't use when you get Sweeping advanced.

Xca|iber wrote:

grayspark wrote:In a sweeping advance, the models just drop down where they are, and if there is another unit with units of the same type within 6", they take their WBB roles.

and you're making Crons weaker by making them take 5+ saves if the enemy is within a certain range. And since really the only way to easily wipe them out is by getting close, that kinda makes you're underpowering them.

and making them come up within coherency like you mentioned at the top of the page, makes that even worse, because if a unit is wiped like that, very few will be in range to get up.

The point of my second post was to remove ALL restrictions on WBB. There would no longer be any "range" for WBB. Models would get up and instantly rejoin their unit. This would, of course, mean that units out of coherency would have to move to get back into coherency, but that's usually around 1 move. Also, ID and power weapons would have no effect, meaning you could give the Res Orb an effect like: models near a Res Orb WBB on a 3+, and tomb spyders could grant an auto-WBB for each wound they have remaining, or something to that effect.

I guess I really just don't like the current restrictions, and I think those should change, but I don't want it to devolve into FNP, and I definitely think SA should still wipe them out.

But of course, by the time Necrons get an update, everyone's going to be so much more powerful in 5th ed, they'll probably just make all the Necrons T5 with FNP, Res Orb means they can always use FNP, and Tomb Spyders modify it to a 3+ save, Monliths grant a reroll. ...and SA would still wipe them out.

Now you're just confusing me...

So they automatically get up? "Auto-wbb"? and it seems you're completely changing what it is you wrote? You should probably be more specific in the future...

Nevermind.

grayspark wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:

grayspark wrote:In a sweeping advance, the models just drop down where they are, and if there is another unit with units of the same type within 6", they take their WBB roles.

and you're making Crons weaker by making them take 5+ saves if the enemy is within a certain range. And since really the only way to easily wipe them out is by getting close, that kinda makes you're underpowering them.

and making them come up within coherency like you mentioned at the top of the page, makes that even worse, because if a unit is wiped like that, very few will be in range to get up.

The point of my second post was to remove ALL restrictions on WBB. There would no longer be any "range" for WBB. Models would get up and instantly rejoin their unit. This would, of course, mean that units out of coherency would have to move to get back into coherency, but that's usually around 1 move. Also, ID and power weapons would have no effect, meaning you could give the Res Orb an effect like: models near a Res Orb WBB on a 3+, and tomb spyders could grant an auto-WBB for each wound they have remaining, or something to that effect.

I guess I really just don't like the current restrictions, and I think those should change, but I don't want it to devolve into FNP, and I definitely think SA should still wipe them out.

But of course, by the time Necrons get an update, everyone's going to be so much more powerful in 5th ed, they'll probably just make all the Necrons T5 with FNP, Res Orb means they can always use FNP, and Tomb Spyders modify it to a 3+ save, Monliths grant a reroll. ...and SA would still wipe them out.

Now you're just confusing me...

So they automatically get up? "Auto-wbb"? and it seems you're completely changing what it is you wrote? You should probably be more specific in the future...

No... I never said they auto pass. (I only suggested that for the tomb spyders as a change in functionality).

When you said "making them come up in coherency" it seemed like you thought I was suggesting that only models in coherency could get back up; that's not what I was saying. Here's what I was talking about (for my second suggestion):

A unit of 10 warriors suffers some casualties in a big multi assault. Somehow, they survive - no sweeping occurs. They pile in away from their original location (to continue with the assault). This leaves some dead dudes about 6" away. Regardless of how those dudes died, they get to make a WBB roll (power weapons/ID don't have any extra effect). On the necron player's next turn the dead models get back up on a 4+, wherever they died - and they never become part of a different squad. What you have now, is part of the original squad a few inches away, and a few "recovered" necrons standing where they died in the previous assault. Now, this may leave the squad out of coherency, so the player might have to move the squad in the movement phase to correct this.

What I was suggesting also was that this change does not occur in a vacuum (as it would obviously make certain items have no effect). To that end, I suggested that Res Orbs alter the roll to be successful on a 3+ within range of the Orb, and that Tomb-Spyders allow, for each wound they have remaining, one model to automatically pass their WBB.

Is that clear enough? My original idea was obviously not liked, so I changed it. Here's how this second idea is less of a hassle: No jumping units, models always rejoin their original unit if they get back up. No restrictions on WBB. If the model dies, it gets to attempt WBB, regardless of PW and Instant Death. For posterity also, SA and DoG would be specifically listed as negating WBB. In this case, since WBB is harder to negate, I suggested balancing it by having necrons near enemies have a penalty to their roll.

How about just making it FNP and the Orb allowing FNP against any and all wounds, even if they would normally ignore FNP.

There. Ultra simple and keeps the math roughly the same.

That is exactly how I feel about it Gwar. Makes it easy.

I have a friend who wants to see the crons go to T6 6+ armor.

How about this, just take the WBB roll right after any armor/cover/inv saves that you take for wounds, much easier, no measuring, no needing to remove the models and then place them back on the table, just basically a second save to keep them on the table, straight up and easy.


posted before I saw GWAR!'s post, basically the same thing hehe.

I guess that'd be okay if it was FNP, but if it was kept the way it was then I'd kinda hate that. That means that tons and tons of Necrons get back up after I smack them in the face, especially in close combat.

grayspark wrote:I guess that'd be okay if it was FNP, but if it was kept the way it was then I'd kinda hate that. That means that tons and tons of Necrons get back up after I smack them in the face, especially in close combat.

Its better for necrons, who are fairly weak at the moment, and solves all of the rules arguments because FNP is very simple in its application.

I find it ironic how often I hear people complain about codexes becoming bland and losing their character, but people always suggest how we should change WBB to FNP.

You know even if they made it exactly like FNP but simply called it "We'll Be Back!" I think i'd be ok with it.

Also T6 with 6+ armour is pretty bizzare to say the least.

I've heard a lot of Toughness 5 crap going around about the crons. But not T6.

That's saying that a single Necron is as tough as Mephiston, or a Carnifex.

I didn't say I agreed with him!

I think T5 could work.

T4 with FnP that always works is good enough imo. T5 is too much.

So....space marines...or really, blood angels. Didn't GW say they were moving crons away from the SM stat line?

And heck, half the necron army is already T5 anyway, don't see anyone complaining about it.

Feel No Pain is boring, uncharacterful, and over-used.

Quite a while ago I proposed something similar to the original proposal, except that casualties were removed and put into reserves. Once an entire unit was back in reserves, it could be brought back onto the board via the usual reserve rules. Additionally, I'd add that Necrons would be put back in reserve if they fail Morale checks. And the difference between Necrons and Constructs would be fixed so that We'll Be Back applied to a subset of Necron units with Necron units being all units in the Codex (similar disambiguation to Chaos Space Marines and Enhanced Warriors).

The notion was to have stuff like the Resurrection Orb be like Icons to Lesser Daemons in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Stuff like the Monolith Portal would also be an entry point back onto the board, just as it is now.

So it's sort of like combining We'll Be Back and Phase Out in that the entire army can be forced off the board with no entry points and thus forfeit the game.

This retains the balance of Necrons and Constructs, with Constructs like Monoliths providing re-entry points to the Necrons, Tomb Spyders providing a Feel No Pain aura, and so on. Basically it keeps the character of the army while retaining the opportunity for a suite of universal special rules to replace overcomplicated Necron specialist rules. That would give players the option of numberless undead robot hordes, elite super-death robots, and a mixture.

Oh, and Pariahs would be Necrons (or whatever that We'll Be Back rule eventually applies to), damnit.

Nurglitch wrote:Feel No Pain is boring, uncharacterful, and over-used.

Quite a while ago I proposed something similar to the original proposal, except that casualties were removed and put into reserves. Once an entire unit was back in reserves, it could be brought back onto the board via the usual reserve rules. Additionally, I'd add that Necrons would be put back in reserve if they fail Morale checks. And the difference between Necrons and Constructs would be fixed so that We'll Be Back applied to a subset of Necron units with Necron units being all units in the Codex (similar disambiguation to Chaos Space Marines and Enhanced Warriors).

The notion was to have stuff like the Resurrection Orb be like Icons to Lesser Daemons in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Stuff like the Monolith Portal would also be an entry point back onto the board, just as it is now.

So it's sort of like combining We'll Be Back and Phase Out in that the entire army can be forced off the board with no entry points and thus forfeit the game.

This retains the balance of Necrons and Constructs, with Constructs like Monoliths providing re-entry points to the Necrons, Tomb Spyders providing a Feel No Pain aura, and so on. Basically it keeps the character of the army while retaining the opportunity for a suite of universal special rules to replace overcomplicated Necron specialist rules. That would give players the option of numberless undead robot hordes, elite super-death robots, and a mixture.

Oh, and Pariahs would be Necrons (or whatever that We'll Be Back rule eventually applies to), damnit.

Necron Squads coming back to life from reserves...

No... that's way too strong. You could just suicide spam the warrior squads and just get them back. Course it would give you a reason to shoot at Monoliths, but that's all.

Pariahs by the way, are still partially human, and therefore cannot be "put back together" enough to come back to live.

grayspark:

So do you have an explanation for why you believe that's "way too strong" or is that just your first impression?

As for Pariahs, background has no bearing on rules, but if it did, then clearly Necron technology is up to the task of putting organics back together atom by atom as much as it is capable of putting living metal back together. Gauss weapons alone are sufficient proof of that.

heres a thought for WBB: Your allowed WBB unless you've suffered a sweeping advance, power weapon wound, or a wound that is double your toughness. A model of simular type must be within 6" for you to recieve this rule (i.e. a warrior needs another warrior within 6" to get WBB). If an entire unit is wiped out (say through shooting or assault, but was not sweeping advanced) any models that resurrect are placed in the nearest unit of the same type. Your opponent still recieves a kill point for the squad being wiped out, however, as these are just "adding" to a different squad.

Simplified. Res orb would just state that you may recieve WBB even if you have suffered a wound that would not normally allow for it.

This differentiates from FnP in a few ways: 1) you can always get it with the orb. 2) Still gives them the "repairing dead things" feel of undead robot zombies. 3) Its not complicated; you get it unless its double your toughness or a power weapon.