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Just interested to get some perspectives on this scenario. My mate plays Ultramarines and i have an annual grudge match coming up, wanna see what i should take, and what might be waiting in store for me.

If you're interested, choose either Ultramarines or Orks. The set up is seize ground, 4 objectives, and deployment is spearhead. Who would you bring to a 1500pt battle, given that there will be a lot of buildings for cover/ to capture?

cK

Against orks?

HQ:
Captain, Relic Blade + Artificer Armor + Bike + Hellfire Rounds (190)

Command Squad: 4 x Flamers + Bikes + 2x :Lightning Claws (255)

Elite:

1 x Ironclad Dread, HF + HF, Drop pod. (185)

Troops:

5-man Scouts with sniper rifles + Tellion, Hellfire bolter. (135)

2 x 10-man Tacs, Flamer + ML + PFist (390)

Fast:

Heavy:

2 x Land Raider Redeemer (480)

Tellion picks off PK Nobs, Command squad wipes any hoard boys and redeemers are pretty unstoppable by orks =)

Yuber wrote:

Tellion picks off PK Nobs, Command squad wipes any hoard boys and redeemers are pretty unstoppable by orks =)

Yeah right... Until he piledrives warboss in you and wrecks the hell out of it... Or rams it with battlewagon...

I play with my marines all the time against ork friend (must be that opposites ) and land raider I play never made his pts back... Not to mention terminators...

As for list, you need mobility and mob wrecking... I play typhoons and they're his worst nightmare... Take lot of flamers and rhinos, as they do wonderful against orks...

Do you know if he's doing battlewagons, kanz wall or green tide?

As setup is quite different for each of the lists...

Chinchilla wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Tellion picks off PK Nobs, Command squad wipes any hoard boys and redeemers are pretty unstoppable by orks =)

Yeah right... Until he piledrives warboss in you and wrecks the hell out of it... Or rams it with battlewagon...

I play with my marines all the time against ork friend (must be that opposites ) and land raider I play never made his pts back... Not to mention terminators...

As for list, you need mobility and mob wrecking... I play typhoons and they're his worst nightmare... Take lot of flamers and rhinos, as they do wonderful against orks...

Do you know if he's doing battlewagons, kanz wall or green tide?

As setup is quite different for each of the lists...

They will be wrecked if you carelessly engage the warboss with a Landraider. My landraiders in the list is there to hold objectives, not to deliver terminators. Pretty much common sense.

Obviously the list was made against green tide.

Still, it's impossible to stay out of warboss range... With waagh he will come to you... And I think that you can do better for that pts... But not that bad against green tide... But both kanz wall and wagon rush would tear it apart...

Yep, Kan wall and wagon rush will crush this easily. Regarding the war boss, you can always wait for him with your iron clad =)

Dropping ironclad into boyz is bad idea... He's worth 185pts, usually can get 16 boyz (if lucky) under template, and then dies... From 16 boyz, 11 boyz die (66pts) and ironclad is dead next turn for certain... Same thing with wagons (ramming destroys it) and 3 kanz can tear it appart by ease...

Next, HQ squad.. Nice killers, but for 445 pts you can do much better... 190pts for captain is too much, especially since you don't use his special rule to add bikers as troops... I'd go with librarian (extra avanger template and ony 100pts)... And use 335 pts for fast attack units (you can put in 3 typhoons, kanz hate them as you have 6 s8 shots, green tide hates them as you have 6 blasts, and wagons hate them since you can easily target side armor and often even rear ,plus you have 65pts to spare afterwards)...

I personaly wouldn't go with redeemers... Or 2 land raiders...

You can drop one land raider to get 240 pts, and add another space marine squad... Plus with spare pts from hq dropped another rhino to flame away horde... redeemer exchange for crusader (you can move 6'' and fire all weapons) give him extra armor and MM (that's 275pts)... You should have enough for everything... If you decide to take land raider in the first place... You can always go with combi-melta and combi-flamer steinguards, or with missile shooty terminators by giving libby goi and terminator armor...

All and all, I think this list can be more optimized against all types of orks and even green tide...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh not to mention 2 heavy support slots that were like born for vindi or dakka predator


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, just realized your friend plays ultramarines

What kind of army are you thinking of playing? Does he know that? Is he making the list just for orks or will he be using one of his all-comers list?

Here's the thing... If you go green tide and he knows it, and if he tailors the list against it, you'll be toasted... Wagon rush and kanz wall are little harder to counter, but not impossible...

So, I'm wondering which way will you go...

Which the list isnt. Its specifically designed to murder green tide =)

Basically, the list work by alpha striking all your flamer templates to anything nearby, and to reduce them into numbers, the tac squads, iron clad, and captains bikers can chew. The 2 land raiders are there to create an artificial chokepoint: the ultimate weakness of a green tide.

Imagine: 2 land raiders tank shocking any ork (at cruising speed) in the way as they form a choke point, then fire a flamestorm cannon, the tacs can they assault whats left of anything. The ironclad can join in the fun, or stay around as a counter charge unit.

The captain and his bike squad can engage orks that are trying to flank or surround your force.

Tellion is pretty much self explanatory he holds an objective in your deployment zone while dropping PK nobz with leisure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember, its spearhead and 4 objectives. Im pretty confident that you can get 2-3 objectives if you play your cards right. Hell you can be a douche and just cruise speed + tank shock + flame all the tym and grab an objective before the game ends.

I know it's tailored for green tide... But still, it can be much better... You want to spam alpha strike templates? Cheaper ways to go than bike captain and his squad... Want to drop alpha strike by pod? For 185pts you can have 5 steins with combi-flamers and pod... Drop down and fire 5 templates... Still die next turn... You want choke point? Ok, land raiders can do the job, but killing cca 6 boyz per turn is not that great...

Why not go 3 whirlwinds and 9 HF landspeeders to be certain? That's 9 HF and 3 large blasts for 705 pts... Rhinos with flamers, libby with avenger and steins drooping with flamers from skies... I think no green tide could survive it...

But I don't like to make this list-killers... No fun in it

Chinchilla wrote:I know it's tailored for green tide... But still, it can be much better... You want to spam alpha strike templates? Cheaper ways to go than bike captain and his squad... Want to drop alpha strike by pod? For 185pts you can have 5 steins with combi-flamers and pod... Drop down and fire 5 templates... Still die next turn... You want choke point? Ok, land raiders can do the job, but killing cca 6 boyz per turn is not that great...

Why not go 3 whirlwinds and 9 HF landspeeders to be certain? That's 9 HF and 3 large blasts for 705 pts... Rhinos with flamers, libby with avenger and steins drooping with flamers from skies... I think no green tide could survive it...

But I don't like to make this list-killers... No fun in it

-Whilrwinds? Me afraid of Lootas =(
-The reason why I took the Ironclad over the sterns is its the only decent thing to counter charge green tide with.
-I need the bikes, so that when they are shot by shootas, they will live through it thanks to FnP, T5 and Sv 3. I also need them to contest objectives the ork maybe holding near his deployment zone. You can also use them to hit the enemy from the rear flank... to bait him into assaulting the bike squad and delay his advance. If he refuses to take the bait, they are pretty much pelted to death by bolters.
-If you do it properly, you can tank shock them in a way that the template can kill like 12 of them >

yep, i'll fielding the orks here. i've never played against him with them before, so he doesn't know what to expect.

I'm thinking that green tides won't be that useful given the confined areas i will have to take and hold.

Plan is as follows:

HQ

Warboss (PK, TL Shoota, Cybork, Eavy Armour)

Big Mek (KFF)

TROOPS

10 x Nobz (Painboy, Cybork, Eavy Armour, Waagh Banner, Bosspole, 5 x PK and 4 x Big Choppa, various shooty things)
Battlewagon (Killkannon, Kannon, Ard Case, Armour Plates, 2 x Rokkits)

Deff Dread (2 x Rokkits)

25 x 'Ard Boys (Nob, PK, BP, 3 x Rokkits)

FAST ATTACK

Deffkopta (Buzzsaw)
Deffkopta (Buzzsaw)


i would have liked to stick a couple of smaller boyz squads in there in trukks, but didn't have room.

thoughts?

Uff, I have quite a few...

HQ:
So warboss wargear... You pay 10pts for 5+ save... Is it worth it to pay 5 more for 4+? I personally go only with cybork... Why TL shoota? Get your 5pts from dropping that too... PK is nice, you can add attack squig for +1A...
Big mek is nice

TROOPS:
This is most important part of ork army, and I don't like what I see... So first, Nobz... 10 nobz is very expensive, especially with 5xPK... I go with 6 nobz, all differented to allow wound abuse... I take 2xPK, bosspole, waagh banner, 3xbc, painby, cybork, combi-flamer.... It's total 270pts, and can deal with anything he puts there...
As for their wagon, never, but NEVER NEVER NEVER take ard case... It's the worst possible upgrade in ork army! Yes, it negates open toped +1 on damage roll, but you can't charge the round you disembark and that's the most important thing there can possibly be with orks! Also, if I recall correctly, killkannon dissalows nobs to take it as dedicated transport... I play wagon with just big shoota, and here is why: when did you ever left wagon stationary? Never? I didn't think so... So if you move 12'', no shooting at all (personally, I don't think I have ever fired with battlewagon in my entire life)... If you even decide to move 6'', you can shoot only one weapon... So why have 2xrokkits, kannon and killkannon? Just waste of pts... Rather take deff rolla (it does wonders, especially against space marines) and grot riggers (or oilers, I always forget their name) to repair your wagon...

Next: Ard boyz... First, no need for rokkits... 20pts for 2 s8 bs2 shots? no thanks... Take them plain...And ard upgrade, well, not worth it... For that you can put 16 boyz... Far better than 4+ save

Deff dreads are imo too expensive for what they can do... You'll do better without them...

FAST ATTACK: very nice (just love them and first turn assault combo )

Overall, you have huge problem... Worst thing to do with orks is to attack in waves and allow your opponent to take care part of your army at the time... And that's exactly that you do here... You have battlewagon charging forward with death star unit that one vindicator can easily counter, and rest of your army (and that's not so much either, only 25 boyz and deff) foot slogging behind... You'll get pwned quite easily...

So my advice is following: Either go full mech or full foot slugging.... If you go mech, spam wagons... If not go green tide or take 9 kanz w rokkits to make 4+ cover wall for footy boyz...

Here is example of ork list I play on 1500pts (or better to say my friend):

HQ: 200
Warboss (PK, bosspole, attack squig, cybork body): 115
Big mek w KFF: 85

ELITES: 150
5x loota: 75
5x loota: 75

TROOPS: 748
10gretchins + ruth: 40
6 nobz (painboy, 6xcybork body, 2xPK, 3xbc, 2xbosspole, 1x waagh banner, 1x combi-flamer): 270
+ dedicated battlewagon (big shoota, deff rolla, grot oiler, extra armor): 130
19 boyz (nob w PK, bosspole): 154
19 boyz (nob w PK, bosspole): 154

FAST ATTACK: 140
Buzzkopta w TL rokkit: 70
Buzzkopta w TL rokkit: 70

HEAVY SUPPORT: 260
dedicated battlewagon (big shoota, deff rolla, grot oiler, extra armor): 130
dedicated battlewagon (big shoota, deff rolla, grot oiler, extra armor): 130

TOTAL: 1498

Idea is to move 3 wagons with 4+ save towards enemy, ram him over, charge everything... No brainer... All wagons have 4+ cover since the move together, lootas try to shoot down light armor, transports and monstrous creatures, gretchins babysit home objective (start in reserves, come from your table edge, take point, get in cover and take +1 on cover saves) and koptas try to wreck turn 1 dangerous vehicles or squishy shooty units... All in all great list, especially against marines... I have hard time with that list...

If you want, I can post you SM list I play with, but it's all comers list and not optimized against orks (as well, above list isn't optimized against marines but works nevertheless)...

Hope this helps

Hey mate, thanks a lot - that's very useful! more feedback to follow


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so a few comments:

Firstly, thankyou for being so polite. i can see now that i have a lot to learn about playing orks!

1. HQ

Ok, an attack squig is more expensive than armour and a TL shoota - are you suggesting getting rid of these for economy or irrelevance of shooting with a WB?

2. TROOPS

Ok, smaller nob squads are better. i'm just worried they would need to outnumber terminators or the like in assault, and am concerned about their skinnyness at only 6 boyz.

Why isn't a deff dread worth it? i know my mate will be bringing an ironclad or a venerable, i thought i would need something to counter it. besides, it can hold an objective whilst his can't

And grots? really? i guess if i put them far away enough from the enemy...?

3. FAST ATTACK

Love these guys. my absolute favourite unit.

What about a small unit of bikers/Nob bikers?

4. HEAVY SUPPORT

All excellent points re: battlewagon. I will tear mine up presently... and obviously i need to invest in a couple more!

cK

If you're playing Marines you want to get in quick, or bring the man-power to withstand a lot of shootiness. I'd reccomend some Nob Bikerz to race ahead and take out main threats, maybe having a Bike-Mounted Warboss with them. You could go the other way and field endless lines of Boyz, mixed with the occasional Meganob. Personally I prefer the Speed Freek style, but it's up to you.

ColonelKlink wrote:

Ok, an attack squig is more expensive than armour and a TL shoota - are you suggesting getting rid of these for economy or irrelevance of shooting with a WB?

The idea is that warboss is monster in combat and attack squig makes him even more dangerous... Extra PK attack (although there are people that say that attack squig doesn't add PK attack, but that's a issue for YMDC )... It's not so important to be fully economical with him, just when shooting is in question... He has bs 2, and paying 5pts to have extra shooting attack is a waste... Paying 15 pts to have extra s10 attack at ws 5 is nice
Same thing with armor... Not bad, can help, but overall, 5+ is more that enough...

ColonelKlink wrote:

Ok, smaller nob squads are better. i'm just worried they would need to outnumber terminators or the like in assault, and am concerned about their skinnyness at only 6 boyz.

Most people play 5-6 terminators... 6 Nobz and warboss can wreck that without problem if they charge... It's tie if they charge you... But I personally attack terminators with boyz... 20 boyz kill them before they even get to act... 6 nobz is a death star unit, with easy way to counter with marines: vindicator... Yet more you have nobz, more damage vindi does... Especially if there is null-zone librarian (I play it allways )... 6 nobz has nice survivability, isn't too expensive (I'm positive that your nob squad is at least 450 pts, which is almost 33% of army... Imagine it getting blown in vindi shot)... You don't want to rely on single unit to win the game... One trick pony armies are easy to counter...

ColonelKlink wrote:
Why isn't a deff dread worth it? i know my mate will be bringing an ironclad or a venerable, i thought i would need something to counter it. besides, it can hold an objective whilst his can't

Deff dread can't hold objective... I too thought he could, since he's troop choice, but there is rule in the brb that says that only non vehicle troop choices that don't specifically say that you can't hold objective can hold it... So deff is vehicle and can't be scoring unit... Problem with deff is that it's expensive and bad in shooting... With bs 2 he has only 55% chance to hit with at least one rokkit at the first place... Here are some probabilities on chances to do at least 1 penetrating hit against various armors:

AV 13: 10,8%
AV 12: 21%
AV 11: 31%
AV 10: 39,51%

As you see, he's only affective against AV 11 and 10, and even in that case, he'll have one penetrating per 3 rounds... And the problem is his speed as he can't keep up with wagons... And if you don't go fast way, and decide to footslog, then kanz are much more efficient at what they do... 3 rokkit kanz are 150, and deff with 2 rokkits is 95... So for 55 (actually 50 since you want oiler upgrade on deff) you get following chances of at least one penetrating:

AV13: 22,97%
AV12: 42,12%
AV11: 57,81%
AV10: 70,37%

Even 2 kanz can do more than deff... And 3 kanz is pretty much survivable, as you can wound allocate... Once one of your kanz loses weapon, all penetrating single shots go to him...
But even if dread was good, there is no room in fast lists for him as again you are spreading your forces (first of all, if you take walkers that have to advance, no matter if kanz or deffs, you wan't to have KFF near them... And you need KFF for wagons)...

ColonelKlink wrote:
And grots? really? i guess if i put them far away enough from the enemy...?

Grots are imo best spent 40pts... Biggest problem with orks is that you want to bring the fight to your opponent... And that means no scoring unit will babysit home objective... My buddy used to play without them, and I managed almost always (when he was winning) to hold him away from my point by blocking his path with rhinos and marines till the game ends, having scoring unit on my point and he lost... But with grots, I have to deal with true threat (and trust me, 3 AV 14 4+ covered vehicles that have 3x1d6 s10 attacks against my vehicles and carry 48 models into my personal space is a threat indeed), and grots spread to take point and claim cover, and with go to the ground you have 2'' spread models (that means, 1 blast one model ) with 3+ cover save... You just have to keep your opponent away so that he doesn't wipe them in cc... If you pull it off, you hold a point (and even if he kicked your ass against wagons, you have draw) or at worst point you have lost 40pts (oh no )... Always take just that one minimal squad and keep them in reserves so that they come as late as possible

But be aware... This list has serious weakness... You can't split your forces (same with kanz wall)! Very mobile opponent can take this into advantage and make you choose which side to go against... Last week my buddy played against our eldar friend and it was sad game... Ork buddy has made few serious tactical errors in game turn 1 and 2 and it has costed him entire game... Always bear in mind that you don't want opponent to have a choice... If you go first, koptas are excellent for that, as it forces him to lose flexibility in deployment... But if you go second... It's a bit harder... Orks miss long-range firepower (other than lootas)... And it shows...

I'm not too experienced player, don't get me wrong... But I have been trying to go competitive and learning for a while now, and I have learned a whole bunch of stuff with orks, eldars, necrons and space marines... My first ork army was similar to yours, and after lots of time spent to make it better by testing and asking for dakka help, I learned whole lot about general tactics and my armies...

Hope this helps, if you have any questions, just ask



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Been trying to find a useful link that someone has given me when I started to tweek my orks... Here it goes:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/310129.page#1822329

It explains gameplay of ork army quite good

That last list is actually pretty solid, he forgot to add that those koptas have buzzsaws (that makes them 70 points). But in general, against marines you want to close ground, fast. I will never play a marine army without lootas also, as their rhino popping ability just rocks, so I support that decision also. I've never tried the gretchin idea, simply because I don't have any, but it's a sound way to spend 40 points.

Only thing I might not agree with, is the nobs. For some reason, I like regular boyz more point for point. For the same points, you could take another unit of boyz in a battlewagon and save 110 points to spend elsewhere, like maybe take a kitted out deff dread (3x CCW + flamer), don't have my book on me so I don't know the points on that, I think it's 95? or 85?.

As you said already, 20 boyz against termies is better than 6 nobz, so what purpose do the nobz serve that the boyz can't do better, and live longer?

I guess I just live by that old addage: Boyz before Toyz

I agree that nobz are not always best thing, but it's more emotional thing here with me... They have proven to be extra tough where I need it... For example 6 nobz will wreck scorpions more easily than 20 boyz.... Or khorne berzerkers... Not to mention vehicles... True, perhaps 20 more boyz will do better, but then again each assault weakens boyz... Nobz are weakened less.. Perhaps you are right, but as I said... Emotions (I have used nobz since that AoBR starter set )...

As for dread, as I said, there is no room in wagon list... If you were going kanz wall or green tide, fine (although I don't like it, but must say love the way they look )... But you're spending cca 115pts for someone who will stay behind and come after your wagons and boyz die...

Yes, koptas have buzzsaw... That's why I call them buzzkoptas