Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok. I want to come up with 1 line arguments as to why you think X Army is the worst army in the game.

But instead of trying to come up with Tiers, lets run this as a line of logic type thread.. Which means there are a few rules.
1) No Debate in this thread.. at all.
2) Only one reason why they are the worst. No combinations
3) Read the thread, and try not to duplicate a reason. If someone put "Orcs and Goblins, Animosity" don't repeat, put something like "Orcs and Goblins, crappy magic items"
4) Please try to format it like my own post. Army: The description of your argument, and then below a new paragraph with a few sentences about why the army is the worst
5) NO DEBATE!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wood Elves: No way to deal with steadfast.

Steadfast is the new name of the game. The most powerful armies in the game are going to start having 2 major common themes, a well protected BSB, and a large chunk of their army being blocks of units that are steadfast. The wood elves will shoot and shoot and shoot, and then as soon as they get into combat they won't deal enough pain to survive the sheer weight of attacks coming back. While they do have some great tree-spirit type units, they are too easy to deal with in the new game.

Ogre Kingdoms: No way to deal with Steadfast (see the pattern?)

Yes, Ogres have more hitting power in CC than Wood Elves. However, if you charge a unit of Bulls into a block of Infantry these days, it wont break away,
which means that next turn your Ogres will get hit in the flank by some nasty shock troops. Also, unlike Elves, Ogres have ABSOLUTELY NO CAVALRY.
This means that Ogres have no viable units that can counter steadfast, and, against a thypical army that plays by the meta, will get shot to pieces,
tarpitted by hordes, counter-attacked and will then flee to kingdom come.

Ogres (and other monster infantry) themselves are like pseudo cav though right? But I think its either Ogres or WE. Maybe TK but they're going to be updated relatively soon I think

Theres also the Gnoblar Horde army list! No wizards besides giving their lord a wizard hat.

Ediin wrote:Ogre Kingdoms: No way to deal with Steadfast (see the pattern?)

Yes, Ogres have more hitting power in CC than Wood Elves. However, if you charge a unit of Bulls into a block of Infantry these days, it wont break away,
which means that next turn your Ogres will get hit in the flank by some nasty shock troops. Also, unlike Elves, Ogres have ABSOLUTELY NO CAVALRY.
This means that Ogres have no viable units that can counter steadfast, and, against a thypical army that plays by the meta, will get shot to pieces,
tarpitted by hordes, counter-attacked and will then flee to kingdom come.

Utter codswallop I'm afraid.

Horde of Ironguts SHRED enemy infantry. Get the charge off, impact hits, take the enemies attacks, then set about them with so many attacks it's not funny. And then stomp to round things off.
And frankly, if you leave your flanks that exposed, then you need to asses whether it's your or your army that's bobbins. I know which I'd go with there.... Please don't just theory hammer. Cavalry are pointless against Steadfast, you know what with not really having the power to break the opponent on the charge. Dent, yes. Break, not likely.

Bulls are flank guarding units for my Irongutbunker. Tyrant and Slaughtermasters join the Ironguts, and biggedy biggedy bong, 1,400 points locked away in a single unit your opponent MUST fight to win. And that ain't easy.

As for Steadfast in general...go after softer targets first. You know, using Tactics and that, exactly how you deal with any other Deathstar unit in the game.

Ragnar4 wrote:
1) No Debate in this thread.. at all.
...
5) NO DEBATE!

So what is the point in a thread, on a discussion forum, where discussion is not allowed?

Agreed about the ogre bits on tactics. If you charge in the front of a 100 man skaven slave unit with their doomwheel and HPA nearby, you deserve to get slaughtered

How can you determine which is really the worst army without debate? If I say army X because of Y, and you say army D because of C, we cannot determine anything from that without debate!

Its because the OP just wants to post his opinion and not have anyone dispute it. Atleast thats what it seems like to me

However, he is right.. wood elves are by far the worst. I have to play a no-slann, no salamander, no skirmisher army against WE with my LM and still slaughter them

No. What the OP is hoping is that the sheer weight of reasons why an army sucks will begin to truely determine what the worst army is.

I'm hoping to be able to put a numerical value to reasons instead of reading stuff that I'm not sure I can trust.

If the O's and G's have 10 reasons, and the Lizardmen only have 3.... It's far more telling than someone saying

ZOMG O's and G's suck guys, I can't win with them. That's what a line of logic thread is. You can counter stuff in other threads..

People can dispute my opinion all they want, I'll go to the mat with them over just about anything. I'm good like that. I was just hoping for a quantifyable thread. It's not often I'm dissapointed in our community here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Mystery wrote:So what is the point in a thread, on a discussion forum, where discussion is not allowed?

Actually it was a test to see if you could read, AND comprehend. It appears you've failed one of those two.

Worst army is TKs.

reason is simply the codex is old. The Skeletons are overcosted and the chariots are weaker. they do have very good shooting and their Chariots are very cheap. the Magic is alot different and requires you to use the FAQ, but is devestating if used correctly.

2nd is woodies.



as far as Ogres go, they are definitly in the middle. not too good and not too bad either. underestimate them at your own risk.

There's a guy around here that runs a unit of like, 15 ironguts, 5x3 with a tyrant and slaughtermaster inside. They get the runemaw banner, it's a pretty tough nut to crack from the looks of it, I haven't played against it personally, I just know he's not making a lot of friends with that list.

As far as weak goes, I can't imagine that the new rules for skirmishers haven't just made wood elves almost unplayable. Every time I have to look up a rule for skirmishers, I can't believe how bad GW made them.

Though I do have to say, in this edition the difference between the "strong" armies and "weak" armies is drastically smaller than it was in 7th, Where if you didn't play one of the big 3 it was pretty much a shot in hell to win a tourney.

Not all skirmishers are weak.

Ogres are powerful against infantry, but stuff like cavalry gives it hell. Their magic is weak. Their mono stat line, WS3 all around, no armor policy also hurts it a fair amount.

Surtur wrote:Ogres are powerful against infantry, but stuff like cavalry gives it hell. Their magic is weak. Their mono stat line, WS3 all around, no armor policy also hurts it a fair amount.

actually Cavelry get pummeled even worse then infantry by ogres.


There usually is a 1-1 ratio of cavlery models to Ogres and Ogres have 3 wounds each.


and Gut Magic is NOT weak. it is very easy to use, and dispell, but that is countered by being able to spam Castings and stack them.

I miss my invincible to anything weaker than str8 Khorne Lord on Juggernaut

Ragnar4 wrote:No. What the OP is hoping is that the sheer weight of reasons why an army sucks will begin to truely determine what the worst army is.

I'm hoping to be able to put a numerical value to reasons instead of reading stuff that I'm not sure I can trust.

If the O's and G's have 10 reasons, and the Lizardmen only have 3.... It's far more telling than someone saying

ZOMG O's and G's suck guys, I can't win with them. That's what a line of logic thread is. You can counter stuff in other threads..

People can dispute my opinion all they want, I'll go to the mat with them over just about anything. I'm good like that. I was just hoping for a quantifyable thread. It's not often I'm dissapointed in our community here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Mystery wrote:So what is the point in a thread, on a discussion forum, where discussion is not allowed?

Actually it was a test to see if you could read, AND comprehend. It appears you've failed one of those two.

But having a list of reasons, when said reasons are not to be challenged, simply accepted at face value, is worthless. Opinions don't necessarily stem from experience, and without knowledge of the various lists and battles fought with said lists, the results are pretty much meaningless.

Take statements made thus far. Couple of people have suggested Ogres, whereas others (myself very much included) beg to differ. Thus without challenging the various statements and looking for a little more explanation and thought,

And onto Ogres Vs Cavalry...my T4, W3 and A3 (with armour piercing on the basic Bulls!) proves more than a match for Cavalry. Had two units of 4 Bulls knack up several units of Dragon Princes the other day. Did I take a kicking during it? Yurp. But then, that matters a lot less in 8th Edition, as you only get VP's for destroying enemy units. Ogres tend to do quite well if you bear this in mind. Take my game on Sunday. Played against High Elves again. My Irongut unit took a real pasting, but by the end of the game, albeit Champion only, was still standing, neatly denying a metric crapton of VPs to my opponent. In turn, I flattened Teclis, 20 Swordmasters, 2 units of 7 Dragon Ponces, and a unit of 30 Spears. The sheer volume of hurtydeathwhacks I can bring to bear on a single unit makes up for my armies natural deficiencies. Hell, Teclis even cast Pit of Shades with IF on my Ironguts, knackering 7 in his first turn. Shame about the 2nd turn onwards, when the Rhinox promptly slaughtered the entire unit of Spears, and ran over Teclis.

So there is my point. Without asking people for more details, or challlenging experience vs opinion vs hearsay, the results mean little more than 'I are think army a is suxxor' rendering the whole thread, and your otherwise good idea pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That Other Guy wrote:I miss my invincible to anything weaker than str8 Khorne Lord on Juggernaut

Eh? Think I ran into that build once. One Killing Blow later and I was not particularly scared Though using Tricksy Trinket (think it was that one, might have the name wrong) to pinch his Save put a great big grin on my face

HoverBoy wrote:Not all skirmishers are weak.

I know, my shades still do quite a bit of good harassment, as do flamers. But the majority have gone by the wayside. The restrictions to firing arc and giving them flanks when they can't have ranks would be the biggest though.

Don't forget you're automatically Stubborn in Woods though, which is usually the reverse for ranked units. Small compensation I know, but worth considering all the same.

And it makes both kinds of skinks oh so much fun.

Unsurprisingly, this thread rapidly jumped the rails, away from the "no debate" rule...

I believe Tomb Kings are having the hardest time in Fantasy.

Blarglord wrote:I believe Tomb Kings are having the hardest time in Fantasy.

Aye, but they are still decent. not having any to hit modifiers is really strong.

the fact they are expensive is the biggest problem they have

Grey Templar wrote:Worst army is TKs.

reason is simply the codex is old. The Skeletons are overcosted and the chariots are weaker. they do have very good shooting and their Chariots are very cheap. the Magic is alot different and requires you to use the FAQ, but is devestating if used correctly.

2nd is woodies.

TK are mid-tier right now. Between the 80 Poisoned bow shots a turn that always ignore negative modifiers, the 80 other bow shots a turn because the player uses his insane amount of auto-cast magic to get the spells off, the two catapult shots, and the casket of souls, by the time the enemy reaches them the two units of Tomb Guard will be plenty to finish them off. Plus you are only reaching them on turn 3 because on turn 1 you are not allowed to make march moves.

The TK only stuggle against 3 armies: WoC, Empire, and Dwarfs, because those are either too tough to kill (WoC) or can outshoot them and stop most of the magic without breaking a sweat (Emp and Dwfs).

TK own the face of Skaven, Ogres, O&G, Daemons, Beastmen, VC and ESPECIALLY Wood Elves. All of these armies have low armour, and the only tactic against shooting is screening or going into terrain to gain cover. Too bad TK ignore those modifiers, and will beat all of them to a pulp.

The great thing about 8th is that it made it possible for every army to compeete, with very few auto loose/win matchups.

HoverBoy wrote:The great thing about 8th is that it made it possible for every army to compeete, with very few auto loose/win matchups.

Yes indeedy! Sure, some armies still retain a certain edge over most, but it's a far far cry from the worst days of 7th. Indeed, the couple of armies which still have limited options for less than expert generals are the older books out there.

I like how no one has mentioned Bretonnians yet.

And yes I play them.

VermGho5t wrote:I like how no one has mentioned Bretonnians yet.

And yes I play them.

Because they aren't the worst army in the game. They have some stuff going for them this edition, there's a guy who's won a couple largish tournies out here in the bay area with brets.

I disagree with you all. And I'll debate it because this is a forum and I'm allowed to do that. And I like it when people say not to do stuff in an open forum, because that's exactly why discussion forums invented. And this thread exists WAAAAY over on page 2, which makes it even more of a target.

But the worst army in the game is the one with the worst general. You can go out of your way to make a completely horrible set of troops. Put all your warmachines up front. Then block all your cavalry units. Cast spells at empty sections of the map. Etc. So out of the players involved, the one who is most brain-damaged I think will almost always lose, regardless of what WHFB army he has.

No one should post after me unless they start their post with, "Golywock Dumperdinkle" and somehow make rhyming couplets after that.

Golywock Dumperdinkle when asked for an army
Don't answer a person that's being smarmy.