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I would agree that would elves are struggling currently.

Many of their units just shouldn't be used.

However their annoying style of avoiding the enemy at all costs whilst blasting the hell out of them is still valid.

My pick is at 2000 points: 140 glade guard in 7 units of 20 (each 2 ranks deep with muso) and just back up 2 inches per turn and fire... repeat adnauseum.

Or Just glade rider spam and ride around the enemy/ flee and rally endlessly.

Seon wrote:Dark elves are the worst army.
Reason being i've never won a game playing them.

Which makes me believe that wood elves are better then dark elves, even though i also have never won with wood elves, They are just more fun to play with so thats a +1

DE are one of the most overpowered factions in fantesy.

millions of crossbows

Hydras. seriously, this thing can get, like 20 attacks in CC(regular attacks, Breath weapon hits, Tstomp)

Frenzied Witch elves. blocks os 20 can get a nasty amount of attacks.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
My pick is at 2000 points: 140 glade guard in 7 units of 20 (each 2 ranks deep with muso) and just back up 2 inches per turn and fire... repeat adnauseum.

While on paper that might sound good, I believe it's rather impractical. I run two units of 20 RXB in a 10x2 formation, and I can hardly find enough room for them on the tabletop due to terrain placement, I couldn't imagine trying it with 7 units.

Plus, the idea of backing up 2" doesn't sound very solid...against most armies, you'll get about 2 shooting phases before their assault lines charge, then you get a stand and shoot. There doesn't have to be much left to kill glade guard. If I sent 4 units of 60 night goblins at those lines, I'll pick the night goblins.

That is some killiness though, if all can shoot at short range at a single target, 140 S4 shots will wipe any unit. The likely hood of that scenario, however, is rather low.

I'd have though true line of sight would make shooting spam even more effective than it was.

They have no mvt modifiers when shooting.
30 inch range

Lets say 3 units are in range of... the 21 tzeentch CWs from another thread.

WE's go first:
Move back 2 inches, shoot 60 shots, 30 hit, 10 wound, 5 through armour, 4 dead.
CWs move forward 8 inches
Move back 2 inches, shoot 60 shots, 30 hit, 10 wound, 5 through armour, 4 dead.
CWs move forward 8 inches
So the WE's are 12 inches back, inch forward to 11.5 and open up... shoot 60 shots, 45 hit, 22 wound, 15 through armour, 12 dead.
So now the bigh Tzeetch unit is down to 1 model.

The key is to have a big chunk of your army's shooting to blast away at the enemies hammer unit, the other 4 WE units are shooting at what they want. Make the big, expensive hammer unit so worthless it doesn't matter if it gets through. And even if it does, the hammer unit can only charge one of the 3 units in front of it.

Which is why Khalida leading a unit of 120 skeleton archers (30 wide) is so broken.
In the magic phase she automatically casts the spell that allows the unit to shoot.
90 shots, 30 hits (15 should be poison), etc, etc... then do the same in the shooting phase, at the same unit or pick another one to obliterate.

I know theory hammer is a great thing, without having to worry about the 2 other CW units and 1 unit of CKs bearing down on the line, but in 8th ed I've found that when you pick on an enemy unit, you smash the hell out of it so the enemy will have fewer options and eventually his army just runs out of puff.






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however my above posts proves that WE's are lame in 8th ed, because if you need to do that to make an army work, then they are definitely bottom tier.

well, it isn't so much that WE shooting is bad(it is fantastic), but rather it's that they can't hide as effectivly from return fire.

now that forests don't block LoS, and many warmachines can indirect fire, they really don't have anywhere to hide from reprisal.

a WE that gets hit is a dead WE.

if shooty TK and the WE glade guard spam you mentioned went against each other i would put my money on the TK.


Forest spirits backed up by shooting seem to be the best way for WE to remain competitive.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Which is why Khalida leading a unit of 120 skeleton archers (30 wide) is so broken.
In the magic phase she automatically casts the spell that allows the unit to shoot.
90 shots, 30 hits (15 should be poison), etc, etc... then do the same in the shooting phase, at the same unit or pick another one to obliterate.

I know theory hammer is a great thing, without having to worry about the 2 other CW units and 1 unit of CKs bearing down on the line, but in 8th ed I've found that when you pick on an enemy unit, you smash the hell out of it so the enemy will have fewer options and eventually his army just runs out of puff.

ZOMG You're right it is broken

Problem is that Skeletons cap out at 40.

Ragnar4 wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Which is why Khalida leading a unit of 120 skeleton archers (30 wide) is so broken.
In the magic phase she automatically casts the spell that allows the unit to shoot.
90 shots, 30 hits (15 should be poison), etc, etc... then do the same in the shooting phase, at the same unit or pick another one to obliterate.

I know theory hammer is a great thing, without having to worry about the 2 other CW units and 1 unit of CKs bearing down on the line, but in 8th ed I've found that when you pick on an enemy unit, you smash the hell out of it so the enemy will have fewer options and eventually his army just runs out of puff.

ZOMG You're right it is broken

Problem is that Skeletons cap out at 40.

Ragnar4 wrote:
It's only debate if I choose to argue it.

Simply making a statement of opinion is not a qualifier for debate.

You need to bone up on your logic and critical thinking a bit.

Yes, it is, because a making a claim IS making an argument. In fact, making a claim is exactly what an argument is. An argument can be any claim. And if you don't want debate, don't submit an argument.

Your argument is that "argument A is better than arguments B, C, and D." Which may be correct, or incorrect, but you submit it in a discussion forum (!) and you can expect it to be rebutted.

Worse still, you made a requirement that nobody in the thread submit arguments rebutting or supporting other claims, then you went ahead and supported/rebutted other claims. Give your head a shake =).

Chaos warriors usually have shields so a 3+ save so more like 2/3 dead including tzeentch save not to mention knights will be there on turn 2, hellcannons will rip you apart and blasted standard etc etc welfs are really bad even when you think up silly lists.

hemingway wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:
It's only debate if I choose to argue it.

Simply making a statement of opinion is not a qualifier for debate.

You need to bone up on your logic and critical thinking a bit.

Yes, it is, because a making a claim IS making an argument. In fact, making a claim is exactly what an argument is. An argument can be any claim. And if you don't want debate, don't submit an argument.

Your argument is that "argument A is better than arguments B, C, and D." Which may be correct, or incorrect, but you submit it in a discussion forum (!) and you can expect it to be rebutted.

Worse still, you made a requirement that nobody in the thread submit arguments rebutting or supporting other claims, then you went ahead and supported/rebutted other claims. Give your head a shake =).

You miss the most important parts of a debate: The sphere and the judging caste. These are not debateable portions of what constitutes a debate, it's in the definitions of what Rieke and Sillars (authors of several colliegate debate textbooks) have established. While we clearly have the sphere, (the forum itself) we clearly do not have a judging caste. So there can be no debate. In fact the entire forum can't have a debate, because there's no one to declare the winner except for the forum itself. What we have here are arguments, and mostly poor ones at that.

So if you want to change the definition of "debate" go take it up with Rieke and Sillars, or write your own textbook that is critically acclaimed and then I'll probably back you as an authority.

Until then, quit trying to tell me what you think may or may not be right about the rules of this thread and contriute

or if you're not capable of contributing don't post?

Jeepers people, please stop acting like children

Uh, how about we stop debating what is debate and stick to the OP, this is a fun thread.

For me it is:

Worst army: Tomb Kings

Why: Overpriced core units that suck. Skeletons could never really kill anything and relied on fear to break the enemy but now that fear isn't what is was, we're stuck paying a premium for an underwhelming ability.

Now that's not to say gunline TK doesn't work, it still does, but its more of a coping strategy than a tactical one, until the new army book comes out. But it only works at higher point games and even then goes down hard to better gunlines or say hordes of skaven slaves.

New tomb kings are on the way and get ready for monster/warmachine spam as has happened with Skaven and Beastmen so they can sell heaps of new kits for broken units.

Ragnar4 wrote:You miss the most important parts of a debate: The sphere and the judging caste. These are not debateable portions of what constitutes a debate, it's in the definitions of what Rieke and Sillars (authors of several colliegate debate textbooks) have established.

English is an interesting thing, in that many words can have more than one meaning. 'Debate' is an interesting one in that context, in that it has a specific meaning in terms of formal debate, and another wholly different meaning in everyday use. When the word is used in everyday conversation it's the everyday definition that is assumed, and that definition is generally a less aggressive form of argument. It's the defintion you yourself assumed when you wrote "It's only debate if I choose to argue it", as you accepted it would be debate despite the absence of a judging caste... which clearly indicates you weren't ever thinking of the academic definition for formal debate, and only turned to that down the track to try and be clever.

Until then, quit trying to tell me what you think may or may not be right about the rules of this thread and contriute

They aren't the rules. They're just bits of silliness you added to your OP. Starting a thread does not give you special powers.

Jeepers people, please stop acting like children

Quite.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:New tomb kings are on the way and get ready for monster/warmachine spam as has happened with Skaven and Beastmen so they can sell heaps of new kits for broken units.

Yeah, GW really cashed in with offering amazing new kits for all those broken Beastmen units! To be fair, I really do like the new Minotaur models. They look great when not painted like ham.

Kirbinator wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:New tomb kings are on the way and get ready for monster/warmachine spam as has happened with Skaven and Beastmen so they can sell heaps of new kits for broken units.

Yeah, GW really cashed in with offering amazing new kits for all those broken Beastmen units! To be fair, I really do like the new Minotaur models. They look great when not painted like ham.

LOLOLOLOLOL


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Mods? Can we get a lock on this to encourage debate in the new thread? This one has run its course I think.

Grey Templar wrote:imagine them treesinging on a Blood forest and making it go stand right on your Lvl4 making him virtually useless.

of moving a bunch of poisened trees in front of your units and theirs.

of sticking a Wildwood over one of your vital units and whiping 1/2 of it out

You cannot tree-sing a forest onto a unit... it stops the moment it touches it. Otherwise, these could have been nasty combos :-/

I just played against wood elves for the first time in a looong time last night (with my WoC troll army). After facing the beastmen chariot list this weekend and squeaking out a victory, there was just no comparison... the wood elves had no chance facing me. (It could've been a bad match-up for them, though)

well, you can get the forest into a dreadfully inconvieniant location(who want to charge through a wildwood) so that if they charge a WE unit they lose steadfast.

Ragnar4 wrote: Mods? Can we get a lock on this to encourage debate in the new thread? This one has run its course I think.

Slightly funny. I think Ragnar4 had a good idea, isolate a certain number of armies, then start up a debate based on those. I think the execution could have been better though.

greenbay924 wrote:Slightly funny. I think Ragnar4 had a good idea, isolate a certain number of armies, then start up a debate based on those. I think the execution could have been better though.

live and learn amirite?

For sure.

To add to the OT:

I just played against Beastmen for the first time with my dark elves, if it wasn't for my corsairs failing their frenzy test and actually making the 9 on dice they needed to charge, the beastmen might have had a chance.

But my corsairs hitting his bestigors with general (a caster) inside, followed by a nice flank of cold one knights, was too much, especially after a mindrazor landed on the corsairs.

From that point on it was down hill for him.

Couple notes:

Minotaurs are just CRAZY in combat, especially when you add a doombull to them! He roflstomped one of my hydras so bad, after impacts, the doombull, and unit champion attacked, there was no point for the rest as the hydra was diced into nice bite sized pieces for the minos to munch on...though on my next turn I did cast Withering on them, dropping them to T2, and shot down the entire unit, except the doombull.

ungors with the +1 str banner and spears is pretty good, my hydra made some amazing saves to stick around. He really didn't have much hope from the start, we had battle for the pass, and he put a river right down the middle of the field, slowed himself down and aloud me to get into position to make ideal charges.

So, they are a little worse than I was expecting, though the bestial fury was pretty good. Take away the heroic corsair charge, and things might have gone really different.