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Merkel says German multicultural society has failed


Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.

Foreign workers
Mrs Merkel told a gathering of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party on Saturday that at "the beginning of the 60s our country called the foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country... We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality.

"And of course, the approach [to build] a multicultural [society] and to live side-by-side and to enjoy each other... has failed, utterly failed."

In her speech, the chancellor specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany" like Christianity and Judaism.

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

Her comments come a week after she held talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which the two leaders pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community.

Earlier this week, Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, said about integration that it was "obvious that immigrants from different cultures like Turkey and Arab countries, all in all, find it harder".

"'Multikulti' is dead," Mr Seehofer said.

In August, Thilo Sarrazin, a senior official at Germany's central, said that "no immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime". Mr Sarrazin has since resigned.

Such recent strong anti-immigrant feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment, even if the economy is growing faster than those of its rivals, the BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says.

Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.

[badtaste]If only they could come up with some sort of solution for this immigrant problem. Some sort of last solution that would fix it. Some sort of final solution. [/badtaste]

I don't understand why Merkel is getting in such a fuhrer over immigrants not integrating into German society.

This isn't Goering to end well.

Kampf we all just get along?

That's unsettling news. Are we sure she wasn't criticizing the specific Green Party policies and ideologies rather than advocating some kind of . . . uh, segregation? Seehofer's comments seem to indicate concern about the results of poor integration rather than anti-immigrant sentiment. Furthermore, I'm not sure that advocating that German citizens speak German is necessarily anti-immigrant. I can see how it would seem so to us Americans, however.

I agree this is not going to end well......

I think immigrants ought to try to fit, such as learning the languages of the places they choose to move to, and not blatantly doing things which are against the local mores. (In Germany, this can include mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.)

OTOH a lot of natives shouldn't be such small-town xenophobes. It won't kill you if a Pakistani family opens a curry restaurant. It might open your eyes to world cuisine.

The Germans in particular have been guilty of allowing in Turkish "gastarbeiter" (guest workers) for decades while granting them minimal rights. It is a bit rich for the Germans to complain now that the immigrants won't integrate.

In the UK our older immigrants are so well integrated that we have old Sikh gentlemen, resident in the country since the 60s, joining campaigns against newcomer foreigners like the Poles, whose relatives have been here since the 40s.

This kind of xenophobia tends to appear in times of economic stress.

How do you find it to be in Japan?

I have noticed a lot of anti immigrant views creeping in to the UK this past week.

Birmingham opting out of a contract taking any asylum seekers and immigrants 'keeping housing for their own population' whatever that means, especially in Birmingham.

And general 'immigrants causing economic pressure' articles.

KK is right that this kind of xenophobia rears its head in times of economic stress.

ill start the ball rolling then shall i ?
I am mixed race (dual heritage ) and live in the most multycultural area of one of the most multycultural cities in england , It is naive to think that multyculturalism was going to be some sort of perfect harmony, put two members of the same race together and they will find their differences , as well as similarities , same with people of different backgrounds , its all the same but different. politicians use hyperbole to further thee own political ends , as do newspapers, just look around and see for yourself if its working! no need to paraqoute other people, to hide behind their statements, i dont care if someone eles is a different race background colour whatever ,its how people behave that bothers me , generally rude , and think that because they are born somewhere on this planet they have a omnipitant right to ownership, of " their little piece of turf"( guess the film?) well last time i looked none owned the planet right ? and i dont care if you say you lived here longer or have more cultural claims, because part of me thinks its just desserts , the europeans only got their power because they exploited just about every other non european country in the world ! , but well i know its tuff with the bankers stealing everyones money so there are no jobs , but better than living in hive world thats what i think, who agrees with me!? i doubt anyone becuase everyones different , and are entitled to their own oppinion , unlees its about muslims gods or english teeth or terrorists!
and isnt xenophobia what the deathwatch were created for? SEND IN THE MARINES!!!!!

sorry, but this is only half the story and the only thing leaving a bad taste here is the mentioning of göring in this context.

anyways, while she did say that "multi-kulti" may not have worked afterall, she also said that muslims are part of germany these days. according to her, it should be the priority to decrease the unemployment rate of germans before you start hiring from all over the world. she also said that not enough was asked of the immigrants in the past, meaning: they were not explicitly asked to actually learn german. some other cultural differences were introduced that dont comply with german laws: forced marriages and so called honour killings are a no-go and so on.

integration IS a problem. and its a big one.

Put two groups of people together, and they'll find something to argue over.

Stick to one group of people, and they'll split into a two groups, and find something to argue over.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think immigrants ought to try to fit, such as learning the languages of the places they choose to move to, and not blatantly doing things which are against the local mores. (In Germany, this can include mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.)

OTOH a lot of natives shouldn't be such small-town xenophobes. It won't kill you if a Pakistani family opens a curry restaurant. It might open your eyes to world cuisine.

The Germans in particular have been guilty of allowing in Turkish "gastarbeiter" (guest workers) for decades while granting them minimal rights. It is a bit rich for the Germans to complain now that the immigrants won't integrate.

In the UK our older immigrants are so well integrated that we have old Sikh gentlemen, resident in the country since the 60s, joining campaigns against newcomer foreigners like the Poles, whose relatives have been here since the 40s.

This kind of xenophobia tends to appear in times of economic stress.

Thanks for this post Killkrazy. Like I said, its a problem, thats the point where Id tend to agree with Merkel, but were way past the point where we should complain. This shouldve been said year, if not decades ago.

I personally have not met many instances of xenophobia and racism in Japan. A drunk man once swore at me in a temple, a few incidents like that. A few people are sometimes a bit shocked to see a white guy in a public bath.

My daughter as a toddler used to get a lot of attention on trains -- people would actually take photos of her -- because she is half-Japanese, half-European, and looked very cute. That is a kind of reverse racism, I suppose. Later she was teased at school by some of the boys -- this is the kind of thing that happens all over the place, I was teased for having red hair -- it is an unpleasant part of human nature.

On one occasion, an old lady in the countryside expressed surprise that my wife spoke Japanese, just because she was in company with a foreigner. I don't think that was racism so much as naivety. There are still many Japanese who have never seen a European except on TV.

On another occasion, shortly after we moved into our new house, a local busybody visited to make sure we knew the rules about which days to put out which kind of rubbish. Apparently the wrong rubbish had been put out. Clearly this could only have occurred because a gaijin had moved into the area. No Japanese would be so lazy or inconsiderate as to put out the wrong rubbish.

To counter all that I have had far more neutral and happy encounters with Japanese people than negative ones.

That said, I am white, middle-class, middle-aged, well-off, and respectable in general terms, and I can speak reasonable Japanese. Things always go a lot better if you look respectable, speak politely, behave yourself, and put high value currency on the counter.

I know things are worse for people with darker skin.

Even my own wife goes on about middle eastern drug dealers in Roppongi. There is suspicion whipped up by biased media reports. This is despite the fact that the Japanese National Police Agency statistics show that foreigners commit fewer crimes per head than native Japanese, as long as you strip out immigration crimes, which by their nature cannot be committed by Japanese.

There is also a fair amount of suspicion against permanent resident Koreans, called the Zainichi. They are the people who came to Japan during its imperial era before WW2. They could easily get citizenship if they wanted to. There is a feeling they should either do that or go back to Korea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flachzange wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think immigrants ought to try to fit, such as learning the languages of the places they choose to move to, and not blatantly doing things which are against the local mores. (In Germany, this can include mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.)

OTOH a lot of natives shouldn't be such small-town xenophobes. It won't kill you if a Pakistani family opens a curry restaurant. It might open your eyes to world cuisine.

The Germans in particular have been guilty of allowing in Turkish "gastarbeiter" (guest workers) for decades while granting them minimal rights. It is a bit rich for the Germans to complain now that the immigrants won't integrate.

In the UK our older immigrants are so well integrated that we have old Sikh gentlemen, resident in the country since the 60s, joining campaigns against newcomer foreigners like the Poles, whose relatives have been here since the 40s.

This kind of xenophobia tends to appear in times of economic stress.

Thanks for this post Killkrazy. Like I said, its a problem, thats the point where Id tend to agree with Merkel, but were way past the point where we should complain. This shouldve been said year, if not decades ago.

The key point is that even if the current project has failed, it does not mean that integration is impossible.

Examples like the USA show that people from many cultures and backgrounds can live and work together if people are prepared to be good people, make compromises, and make a success of their new society. It is the holdouts on both sides, natives and newcomers, who can make things go wrong.

Of course it is easy for me, a kind of lucky, well off person who isn't threatened by immigration, to pontificate about these things. Many people are in a situation where they see immigrants as threatening their jobs, pay, and social services, and can't afford to eat at exciting foreign restaurants. These are genuine concerns and must be considered.

That garbage story is hilarious. One of the places I lived in Japan had the garbage pickup cage right along a busy street, and so donkey-caves driving along would stop and dump their trash in their, leading to all sorts of inappropriate things thrown in there, and making a mess in general. And yet it was always the foreigners in the complex who were blamed for it. It got to the point that another collection cage was built exclusively for foreign use (at the back of the parking lot, well away from the road) so that innocent residents would not suffer from our awful, trashy ways. There was a certain amount of schadenfreude to be enjoyed when our spot was immaculate, and the 'Japanese use only' cage was still a mess.

German here.

I worked with a turkish girl at an internship at a big German biomedical company for a while. She was a perfect example for integration - she spoke very good German, was very talkative to everyone around her, friendly, while still keeping her culture in the ways of Islam and speaking turkish.

On the other side, every few weeks to months over the last years, there were stories in the news about groups of young immigrants from the turkish/near east region that severely injured or even killed other citizens, while screaming "feth GERMANY!" and "fething GERMANS!" (while living from German welfare and social help).

I talked to the turkish girl about this once. And what she said quite surprised me: According to her, the majority of the turkish community here in Germany is far more conservative and hardline religious than anybody in modern Turkey right now. These immigrants probably were a bit overstrained in their change from turkish surroundings to german surroundings and culture - and as a result, they stuck even more to their "old ways". People in modern Turkey apparently start to view the Turks living in Germany as lower class, backwater and overly traditional. My mother was a teacher in eastern Germany for a while and sometimes visited immigrant families. In some cases, the mother of the pupils from her class did not speak a single word of German - while living in the country for decades. And this was somewhere in the country, where basically no other turkish families lived, so this woman could only talk to her family for the whole time! Don't ask me for the exact reason, but I'd hazard it had something to do with "The woman should stay at home and care for the children and not talk to those foreigners outside. Only men and boys do that." It's not like you couldn't learn German if you wanted (and were allowed by your husband) to, there are many possibilites available for that.
In another case, a turkish girl that was teached by my mother was a quite good student - and she wanted to get higher education, maybe even study something. However, her family was STRICTLY against it - according to them, studying and higher learning was not befitting of a good turkish girl. In the end, my mother offered the girl to live at our place for a while and helped her to find a place to live away from her family. The family meanwhile didn't talk anymore to that girl for what she had done.
In other cases, immigrant girls were killed by their brothers, because they were in love with a guy from an ethnicity that the immigrant family did not like. Honor killings they call it. Don't get me started about those gakheads...

So, these were some examples from how it is. Some people are integrated very well, but the bigger part is probably not. While Germany has to take some blame for this failed integration, a big part of the blame has to be given to the immigrants as well, simply refusing to accept ANY part of German culture (as allowing girls to study) as shown above. The better-integrated Turks are sometimes ashamed of what these people do (and then end up in the news). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for integration and have friends from different immigrant backgrounds in Germany, it's just that some people appartenly can't be helped.

I guess it's a matter of time. Younger generations will start to know less and less about the "old turkish ways" that their parents and grandparents tried to stick to. This will make integration MUCH easier.


Postscriptum: Oh, and just so you know why it was/is so hard to have a mature discussion about immigration in Germany...even here in an American forum, there's some posts about Germany and something about "problems with immigrants" and you guys whip out Hitler, Göring and whatnot. I found those posts funny, don't get me wrong. But, it's even WORSE in Germany. It's getting better, but a few years ago you'd better be damn careful about what you say about immigrants, because otherwise someone would scream out "OMG U R NAZI" verrry soon, with some kind of negative repercussions if you're in a political position.

Postpostcriptum: And Merkel isn't saying multi-kulit has failed so we should just stop trying. She has a complete new seven-points-plan that involves things like "people not living next to each other, but WITH each other", so, no, Germany won't start thinking about any "final solutions" you might think of.

Witzkatz wrote:
I guess it's a matter of time. Younger generations will start to know less and less about the "old turkish ways" that their parents and grandparents tried to stick to. This will make integration MUCH easier.


Postscriptum: Oh, and just so you know why it was/is so hard to have a mature discussion about immigration in Germany...even here in an American forum, there's some posts about Germany and something about "problems with immigrants" and you guys whip out Hitler, Göring and whatnot. I found those posts funny, don't get me wrong. But, it's even WORSE in Germany. It's getting better, but a few years ago you'd better be damn careful about what you say about immigrants, because otherwise someone would scream out "OMG U R NAZI" verrry soon, with some kind of negative repercussions if you're in a political position.

Postpostcriptum: And Merkel isn't saying multi-kulit has failed so we should just stop trying. She has a complete new seven-points-plan that involves things like "people not living next to each other, but WITH each other", so, no, Germany won't start thinking about any "final solutions" you might think of.

Im not so sure about integration getting any easier. As you know, some city disctrics (Neukölln in Berlin for example) are basically immigrant strongholds. German kids in schools (and Im talking elementary school level here) basically get hunted by kids coming from immigrant families. I dont see that helping any. Even the police doesnt wanne go in there and lets not kid ourselves here, we are talking about Germany, not some third-world country where people can do as they like (I dont wanne step on any toes here). However, Im not also trying to put the blame on the immigrants as a whole. I have quite a few friends that immigrated with their families over various points of time and all are integrated well, working hard and so on. I dont care if they want to bring their culture with them, as long as theyre able to respect the culture of the country they came to, respect the people and follow the rules. Seeing immigrated kids at schools give interviews saying "yeah F**K all Germans!!!" S'cuse me? You dont like us ? then get the F out!! But we are in Germany, so you tell em to F-off youre instantly a nazi, a racist, and youre generally trying to take over ze world And so we're going in circles, just like Witzkatz mentioned.

Sarazin for example, has a lot of valid points in his book as well as his interview. He just doesnt know how to bring them across in a friendly manner (meaning he sux ass at this), that doesnt generalize all too much. Saying that immigrant violence against germans is rising has nothing to do with racism though. Those are facts that other politicians dont have the nerve to lay open.

PS: I spent a while working in downtown london and i loved it there. So many different cultures and everybody was respectful and very forthcoming. And theres plenty of cultural diversity there. As usual, it can work out, but everybody has to be willing. The immigrants will have to adhere to the rules, while the "natives" should be respectful of cultural change and diversity.

Witzkatz wrote:Some people are integrated very well, but the bigger part is probably not.

According to whom?

Is it possible that the majority are integrated quite well, and there are some that are not?

article wrote:A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

This and the comment about learning German NOW were the parts that caught my attention.

I won't even read any further into this and I'll just go ahead and assume that Germany is in fact NOT "overrun by foreigners".

That is just my gut instinct talking, though.

According to whom?

Is it possible that the majority are integrated quite well, and there are some that are not?

Actually, yes, that might be possible. I'm willing to assume that, since I'm not working in that field, my perspective might be flawed by media reports and subjective information. I guess one could try and find objective studies about this, but even those might be falsified by bias or whoever the scientists are working for. One statistic that I know actually exists says that young immigrants are responsible for more crimes in Germany than non-immigrant youth. BUT! I'm also willing to assume that only part of those guys are idiots; another part might have had very bad experiences with native Germans being racist and, therefore, succumbed to criminality. Again, hard to find objective data on this.

One thing that Flachzange mentioned...what really worries me and makes me angry is, that more than a few young immigrant kids in certain cities apparently go around saying and thinking "feth Germany and the Germans!", harassing native Germans kids as "Filthy pork-eaters" and stuff like that, making a hobby out of getting in trouble with the police. That's...that's just wrong. It shouldn't be like this. And I don't think it's just the native Germans being bad hosts, but also a case of xenophobia from the side of the immigrants and very poor parenting.

Postscriptum: Overrun is probably a too harsh word, yes. OH! But I have to tell you people one gem of international politics: The turkish head of government actually invited all German politicians of turkish decent to Turkey, gave them nice hotels and nice food, congratulated them on their good work...and then urged them to increase their efforts to establish more Turkish culture and Turkish customs throughout Germany. And then he went on and demanded Turkish high schools for Turks only in Germany. Can you believe that?! He wasn't wanting Turks in Germany to integrate, but to assimilate theGermans! I shook my head in disbelief after reading this...

Witzkatz wrote:

According to whom?

Is it possible that the majority are integrated quite well, and there are some that are not?

Actually, yes, that might be possible.

There is probably a decent amount of studies available on the subject. In many cases that information is made available through subscriptions to different journals. It is difficult to find reliable information to confirm any of this either way.

It is likely that a few stories were nationally covered and fears were stoked as a result.

I agree with you about the untrustworthiness of nationally covered stories. Actually, this discussion just reminded me of this nice quote from Sokrates, that goes roughly like: "The youth of today loves the luxury, has bad manners and detests authority. They dissent with their parents, get lazy and tyrannize their teachers." While this is not directly related to immigration, it is related to society overreacting to what might be new and unknown. There seems to be an increasing number of people getting beaten to death by youngsters on German streets, which is a despicable thing; however, the newspapers make it sound like every tenth boy is involved in stuff like this, when, in reality, it's one in ten millions. Total exaggeration, which seems to be in vogue in GER/UK/USA in the last years.

Merkel hasn't been that open with her speech for the last months; that she says something as openly as "multi-kulti has utterly failed" is maybe a good sign insofar as that her government has actually decided that some changes and some action need to be taken. We can just hope that these changes will be more successful in the further integration process.

Xenophobia is often a two-way street, and it is difficult to lay blame on one side over another. As the native population is by far the largest portion of Germany, it seems reasonable for them to be the greatest part of this solution. That doesn't have to come in the form of hugs and kisses, but perhaps no more than some recognition of the full range of possibilities.

You've shown a sincere interest in understanding this issue, and I would definitely encourage you to look further into it.

I agree that some objective papers or articles on the subject would greatly increase my or anybody elses ability to discuss this topic. In the end, I know that I know nothing; my view on this is basically based on the circumstances in my hometown area, where immigration works without too many problems, just usual stuff - and news reports, which sound worse. Someone from Berlin, living near Neukölln where we have some of the very few "real" Ghettos in Germany, might have a totally different view on this, as might have someone from rural areas with very few immigrants...

Kilkrazy wrote:I personally have not met many instances of xenophobia and racism in Japan. A drunk man once swore at me in a temple, a few incidents like that. A few people are sometimes a bit shocked to see a white guy in a public bath.

My daughter as a toddler used to get a lot of attention on trains -- people would actually take photos of her -- because she is half-Japanese, half-European, and looked very cute. That is a kind of reverse racism, I suppose. Later she was teased at school by some of the boys -- this is the kind of thing that happens all over the place, I was teased for having red hair -- it is an unpleasant part of human nature.

On one occasion, an old lady in the countryside expressed surprise that my wife spoke Japanese, just because she was in company with a foreigner. I don't think that was racism so much as naivety. There are still many Japanese who have never seen a European except on TV.

On another occasion, shortly after we moved into our new house, a local busybody visited to make sure we knew the rules about which days to put out which kind of rubbish. Apparently the wrong rubbish had been put out. Clearly this could only have occurred because a gaijin had moved into the area. No Japanese would be so lazy or inconsiderate as to put out the wrong rubbish.

To counter all that I have had far more neutral and happy encounters with Japanese people than negative ones.

That said, I am white, middle-class, middle-aged, well-off, and respectable in general terms, and I can speak reasonable Japanese. Things always go a lot better if you look respectable, speak politely, behave yourself, and put high value currency on the counter.

I know things are worse for people with darker skin.

Even my own wife goes on about middle eastern drug dealers in Roppongi. There is suspicion whipped up by biased media reports. This is despite the fact that the Japanese National Police Agency statistics show that foreigners commit fewer crimes per head than native Japanese, as long as you strip out immigration crimes, which by their nature cannot be committed by Japanese.

There is also a fair amount of suspicion against permanent resident Koreans, called the Zainichi. They are the people who came to Japan during its imperial era before WW2. They could easily get citizenship if they wanted to. There is a feeling they should either do that or go back to Korea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flachzange wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think immigrants ought to try to fit, such as learning the languages of the places they choose to move to, and not blatantly doing things which are against the local mores. (In Germany, this can include mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.)

OTOH a lot of natives shouldn't be such small-town xenophobes. It won't kill you if a Pakistani family opens a curry restaurant. It might open your eyes to world cuisine.

The Germans in particular have been guilty of allowing in Turkish "gastarbeiter" (guest workers) for decades while granting them minimal rights. It is a bit rich for the Germans to complain now that the immigrants won't integrate.

In the UK our older immigrants are so well integrated that we have old Sikh gentlemen, resident in the country since the 60s, joining campaigns against newcomer foreigners like the Poles, whose relatives have been here since the 40s.

This kind of xenophobia tends to appear in times of economic stress.

Thanks for this post Killkrazy. Like I said, its a problem, thats the point where Id tend to agree with Merkel, but were way past the point where we should complain. This shouldve been said year, if not decades ago.

The key point is that even if the current project has failed, it does not mean that integration is impossible.

Examples like the USA show that people from many cultures and backgrounds can live and work together if people are prepared to be good people, make compromises, and make a success of their new society. It is the holdouts on both sides, natives and newcomers, who can make things go wrong.

Of course it is easy for me, a kind of lucky, well off person who isn't threatened by immigration, to pontificate about these things. Many people are in a situation where they see immigrants as threatening their jobs, pay, and social services, and can't afford to eat at exciting foreign restaurants. These are genuine concerns and must be considered.

Yes, Japan can be quite the ordeal.

I have stopped trying to fit in as it is impossible. We've had the rubbish SS drop crap off at our door too. My response was to take the bag and leave it in the middle of the road with a piece of paper taped upon it stating it wasn't mine and please don't put your rubbish on my doorstep ever again, thanks, lulz. I don't break the rules of society but operate withing the framework. I have no problem cycling around the neighbourhood sans T-shirt swilling beer exposing tattoos carry a bag of recyclables. There is no law against any of it. Well, maybe the beer and bicycle bit, that's what paper bags are for, but I haven't been busted for it yet. I find that in the 'City', meaning Tokyo, there is more racism and general disbelief at a foreigner being able to exist without cutting themselves open and bleeding to death by accident than in the country. I live in the countryside and most people here are shocked by my presence at first and then fall into a state of dumbfoundedness upon my beyond amazing grasp of their language. Nothing like having a foreigner correcting your Japanese at 1 am when he is buying a few beers at your convenience store.

Japan isn't multicultural. However, in the next 10-15 years there will be a huge amount of Chinese immigrants that'll give everyone something to bitch about. As for the Grossdeutschesreich, I can only imagine every one getting their noses out of joint.

Multiculturalism doesnt work.

Germany is starting to realise this. Good, if you or I went to live permently in Germany we ought to be expected to becomes as Germans. That shouldnt be too hard a concept to grasp.

Orlanth wrote:Multiculturalism doesnt work.

Germany is starting to realise this. Good, if you or I went to live permently in Germany we ought to be expected to becomes as Germans. That shouldnt be too hard a concept to grasp.

Well, exactly. When I lived in Spain, I spoke Spanish at all times when dealing with Spaniards. I only spoke English if the person in question wanted to practice THEIR English (seriously, any other expats get this as much as I did? ) I ate Spanish food, lived in a Spanish area (i.e. not a typical British expat ghetto. Ugh.), shopped at Spanish businesses - I even got my smoke from a Spanish dealer!

It's really not a hard thing to do as long as the will to integrate is there.

Manchu wrote:That's unsettling news. Are we sure she wasn't criticizing the specific Green Party policies and ideologies rather than advocating some kind of . . . uh, segregation? Seehofer's comments seem to indicate concern about the results of poor integration rather than anti-immigrant sentiment. Furthermore, I'm not sure that advocating that German citizens speak German is necessarily anti-immigrant. I can see how it would seem so to us Americans, however.

Its not unsettling if you get the whole story. Witzkatz and Flachzange make some good points here so I may suggest their posts to put the OP in context, which is
criticizing the Green Party and other groups concepts.

Kilkrazy wrote: (In Germany, this can include mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.)

Saturday is the day to do this


Merkels speech is maybe a hint she realizes the feelings of the majority of the populace need addressing and she can't stick with moderating .

Albatross wrote:
Well, exactly. When I lived in Spain, I spoke Spanish at all times when dealing with Spaniards. I only spoke English if the person in question wanted to practice THEIR English (seriously, any other expats get this as much as I did? ) I ate Spanish food, lived in a Spanish area (i.e. not a typical British expat ghetto. Ugh.), shopped at Spanish businesses - I even got my smoke from a Spanish dealer!

It's really not a hard thing to do as long as the will to integrate is there.

I agree but cannot do this because I am not wired for foreign languages, some people just aren't. But then I dont go abroad for something other than holidays or short trips. So long as I know please and thankyou, it is acceptable.
So for me the answer is therefore not to work as an expat rather than join one of the English ghettos. Working in the sun can be fun for a while, but I have standards.

KK is like many well meaning middle class people Frazz, i like to go for the pessimistic approach personally. The idea that we all live in these multi cultural "melting pots" is laughable, we have our nations and they have lots of different people in them, but pretty much everyone hates each other and nobody mixes, so how is that a melting pot?

Look at London, Asians stick with Asians, Blacks stick with blacks, white sticks with white, and you have areas that are "no go" if your not the right colour, but still the lefties like to pretend none of this is happening and all is well with the world.

Humans are stupid jumpy animals that are prone to acting up and dislike people they see as different to them, and rather than stick my fingers in my ears and pretend all is going to be well i tend to go for a more right wing pragmatic approach.

Immigration should be tighter, more efforts should be made to force people to mix, immigrants should HAVE to speak the language of the nation they want to move to ect etc

Its not economic unrest thats causing people to be bigoted, its too many bloody immigrants.

And can you blame them?

If i was dragging my ass out of bed 6 days a week to pay my rent while the Somalian family who dont want to speak to me anyway get everything for "free" id be pretty pissed off as well.

Micheal Howard said this years ago, forcing your liberal idealism onto people turns good people INTO racists, and thanks to the labour party allowing immigrants from some of the poorest places on the globe to run riot its no wonder the BNP got more airtime, this gak needs sorting out, but nobody is willing to talk about it for fear of being branded a bigot.

Good show Mrs Merkel.

ITT Xenophobia and whining.

ShumaGorath wrote:ITT Xenophobia and whining.

That was a fun arcade game!



Don't think I ever played Whining, but I've heard the name a lot.

Frankly the older i get the more i think a smattering of good natured family xenophobia is a good thing. They say you get more conservative as you age, do you think this is because your older and wiser?

I mean, who's grandad doesnt hate pretty much everyone?