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Why would you take Kroot? They have no armor saves! Firewarriors are much better. (I assume?)

GalacticDefender wrote:Why would you take Kroot? They have no armor saves! Firewarriors are much better. (I assume?)

Kroots are close combat beasts.
They are met to ensure that the firewarriors don't get assaulted.

This is why you take kroot.


Imagine your FW line sitting in a line ready to shoot everything. Now if Ork boyz assault them, they are toast in no time flat. SO What you do is take kroot and basically use them in waves. Kindda like this
X=kroot
O= Fire Warrior

X X X X X X X X X X

X X X X X X X X X X
O O O O



Something along those lines. You attack boyz with line one. They might not win, but they will do damage either way. So once the combat is done, you shoot the hell out of the boyz. Then assault with the OTHER wave of kroot. Rinse repeat. Also with that tactic you can keep falling back with the FW.

Its not full proof, but you can really wittle things down doing that.

Or maybe I could just shoot with my firewarriors until the orks get close, and then jump in devilfish transports and move them to the other side of the map. Then start shooting again.

Kroot are pretty decent skirmishers and their save is actually fairly solid when they're in the right kind of cover. They can lay down decent fire and can assault weakened targets. However, kroot suck pretty hard at assaulting any kind of assault troops, which is what you'd want them to do well (counter-assault) due to their lack of armor, lack of power weapons, and low initiative. The only thing they're any good at fighting that will be in their face is Ork boyz (which they aren't necessarily all that good at anyway) and crippled units of things like banshees. Otherwise they charge, a bunch of them die, then they strike for minimal damage, then they fail leadership and run off or more likely are run down. Sending these guys into combat against space marines is usually suicide unless you outnumber them at least 3 to 1 and are charging.

GalacticDefender wrote:Or maybe I could just shoot with my firewarriors until the orks get close, and then jump in devilfish transports and move them to the other side of the map. Then start shooting again.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you haven't played too many games versus Orks. They usually have ways of dealing with transports, and ours aren't even fast. You are going to have to face them. 10 kroot and 5 hounds seems to be a good speed bump for orks. Once you take out their transports focus fire on the closest mob until they are gone. Then the next and the next until they run or die. Don't forget to run a squadron of piranhas and sit them in front of those transports early to bottle them up in their deployment zone.

edited for clarity (ish)

Kroot have a number of advantages over fire warriors. Like being able to deploy in flexible manner.

Honestly I don't see any point in taking firewarriors past the minimum number. I would take 2 15 strong kroot squads +6 man fire warriors as the troop choices. In this kind of list you score with your protected firewariors, and use the kroot to screen your actually dangerous units like crisis suites and broadsides.

Kroot die, they die alot. I have no idea why anyone takes them, but I only play Space Marines and Ork's so your kroot won't last. Honestly I can't really think of anytime they are good, I've always wiped them in a single Assault Phase wether I charged them or they charged me. Long story short they die in Assault, Tau die in Assault, so shoot more, ALOT more.

Well take 10 kroot and 2 krootox and put them in a transport. It's completely legal, so it will really surprise a lot of people, and they can be completely unprepared for it.
Or just take the super massive squad(20 kroot, 1 shaper, 3 krootox, 12 kroot hounds) and watch the enemy panic, as they'll have more units than in a 20 man ork boy sqaud.

A full blob is just too many points though. That'll be like 2 20 ork mobz point wise. Keep them small

ofcBOOMstick wrote:Kroot die, they die alot. I have no idea why anyone takes them, but I only play Space Marines and Ork's so your kroot won't last. Honestly I can't really think of anytime they are good, I've always wiped them in a single Assault Phase wether I charged them or they charged me. Long story short they die in Assault, Tau die in Assault, so shoot more, ALOT more.

Kroot are supposed to die. That is their job, dieing so their betters may live.

Kroot are awesome in cover, have a decent gun, and can infiltrate. They are also cheap, and troops. Although I wouldn't go for more than 2-3 units of 10, though.

I find their infiltrate is better than the S7 gun of the Krootox, especially since the Tau player should have plenty of other guns out there.

Don't make me post the Kroot VS White Scars picture.

Kroot are quite good, but my experience contradicts the theory.

The only time I fought them, the tau player bubble wrapped some firewarriors in the far corner of the board, giving him a nice firebase.

I shot the kroot with 5 lootas...
killed 5...
And they fled off the board.
Same thing happened to the firewarriors next turn.
They were his only troops.

Kroot have theoretical potential, but need cover to survive.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:
I shot the kroot with 5 lootas...
killed 5...
And they fled off the board.
Same thing happened to the firewarriors next turn.
They were his only troops.

A great example of Orks outshooting tau

Kroot kill AV 12 vehicles pretty well. Firewarriors can't.

2/3 games are objective based.

Kroot can be reserved and outflank to take an objective.

Objectives placed in a forest can be held by kroot as they can only be shot off the objective by weapons that ignore cover saves.

I have only run Kroot Mercenaries (using the 3rd ed. Chapter Approved list) as a part of my Eldar army on a couple of occasions. But a unit of ten Kroot in the woods has proved to be more effective than the rest of my Eldar army put together in two seperate 750-points games, and killed a Daemon Prince when assaulted by one. So I am looking forward to using Kroot in my upcoming Tau army.

Judging from what I've read here so far, Kroot seem highly situational. Its undeniable that they are somewhat effective in CC, although 'somewhat effective CC' for the Tau is the Imperial equvilent of a Conscript squad. As long as their in cover, they can do some damage, arn't too expensive and can outflank for an easy objective end-game raid.

On the other hand, don't expect Mr Kroot to be writing home to the kids on how the battle went.

This is why kroot are awesome... you just have to be careful:

2+ Cover Save in Woods when you go 2 ground, 3+ otherwise.

Infiltrate

Close combat madness

Cheap points cost

Need I say more? If you are careful with kroot, you can destroy. I have had many good experiences with them. You just have to make sure they aren't shot at in the open.

The Bringer wrote:
Close combat madness

What part of initiative 3, toughness 3, 2 attacks each base (basically), strength 4, WS 4, no power weapons and no armor save equate to close combat madness?

Let's compare a kroot to an ork shoota boy.

The shoota boy is 1 point cheaper, mostly fearless, averages more hits at longer range with their assault 2 weapon and can shoot when they charge, can have fleet for 1 turn, has the same number of attacks, has better toughness, and has 1 point worse in initiative and strength but has furious charge, and the leader of their unit can take a power fist. The most important things out of that are the assault weapons, the power fist and the fearlessness, as these are what make a good close combat unit.

The kroot on the other hand has the advantage of being able to infiltrate, and in the right situation can have a slightly better cover save, but is worse in pretty much every way. To be a worthwhile unit, kroot need to have the stealth USR instead of their 'woods-only' thing and need to be able to take power weapons of some stripe. To be a competitive unit kroot also need assault weapons instead of rapid fire and a morale bonus of some kind. 7 or 8 leadership does not cut it when they're going to lose almost every combat, 5th edition really killed that for them. As is, it takes about 4 kroot charging (12 attacks) to kill a single marine on average in close combat, while it takes marines less than 4 attacks to kill a kroot and the marines strike first.

Kroot have a number of uses. You just have to know how to use them in order for them to work.

Rule 1: You've got to accept that your Kroot are going to die, don't play them in a way to try and keep them alive as long as possible because that's a waste.

Assault: Kroot are pretty much the Taus only assault unit. Battlesuits can do it semi-decently but it isn't their intended role. That being said Kroot are very squishy and usually won't win in cc due to the reasons mentioned above. When using them in an assault it's best to use them as a road bump against foot slogging cc units (Black Templars, Space Wolves, Ork Mobs, Tyranid swarms) so that your Tau can redeploy so that they can best deal with the threat when the kroot are dead. Another thing is assaulting week cc units like snipers, IG squads etc. Kroot Hounds are a must in Kroot squads, their good inititive means they will usually attack first and possibly whittle down the enemies size, they then take the returning attacks which means you still have a good number of Kroot to attack. Krootox are a no no, yeah they're strong and have a Kroot Gun but that strength comes at a loss of mobility which is the Kroots biggest asset. And their are plenty of weapons in the Tau arsenal that do the same thing as a Kroot Gun and do it WAY better. Shapers are really only worth it for the Ld bonus but honestly it's more worth it to spend those points on more Kroot. And the 6+ save is useless, in 10 years of playing it has never been worth taking.

Counter Assault: This is pretty much the same thing as assaulting except in assaulting you're attacking the enemy on their own turf. Counter assaulting is intended to protect your Tau up close as their are often units that don't have to move across the board to get to your Tau (Kommandos, Space Wolf Scouts, Lictors) and so these are intended to be a rear guard speed bump.

Anti Infiltrate bubble: If you can deploy your kroot through infiltration in a curved line in cover this works great in preventing enemy infiltrators from getting to close and also acts as a counter assault unit mentioned above.

Gun Squad: A Kroot Rifle is actually a decent gun, not the best but decent. This combined with the Kroots fieldcraft ability can make them fairly annoying and effective gun squads if used in cover. Also cover saves are the best save that Kroot are going to get.

Objective Grabber: With the ability to outflank a large unit of Kroot with Kroot Hounds can be good great late game Objective Grabbers. If they are shot at then that's one less gun aimed at your Tau and if they're assaulted again that's one less unit assaulting your Tau but by that point the enemies assauly units are half way across the board or dead if you've used your guns right.

These are just some of the ways I have used Kroot. I field 3 units in my army and each unit can cover at least 2 of these purposes at 1 time. Players just have to remember that Kroot are going to die, you just have to find a way to make their deaths usefull.

And to the player who made the comment about just mounting up, moving away from the Orks, shoot and repeat.......good luck with that.

Why cant someone play a tau army where ALL their troops are kroot? I'm not sure about max squad size but I do know that kroot are dirt cheap.

You can leave proper shooting to broadsides, pathfinders, battlesuits etc and have your own horde army of insane gibbering kroot!

Sure your Ld will be crap and untold thousands of kroot will die but it would be really fun and your might even pick up a win or two...

I did that a few yars ago actually. It was a fluff based army where a Tau ship crash landed on a remote Kroot world shortly after the Tau discovered the Kroot. Most of the Tau died in the crash but the few who had survived where forced to fight alongside the Kroot and depend on them almost exclusivly.

I had the mandatory unit of Fire Warriors, 3 units of Stealth Suits, 5 units of maxed out kroot and kroot hounds, a counts as O'shassera, Phiranna for fast attack and I think 3 broadsides. The idea was that they had salvaged what they could from the wreckage and the smaller things had mostly avoided damage. It was fun to play even if they didn't win.

Brutii11 wrote:Why cant someone play a tau army where ALL their troops are kroot? I'm not sure about max squad size but I do know that kroot are dirt cheap.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firewarriors are 1+

I think all the discussion so far stems from the fact that the Tau simply have a mismatched, unbalanced (cost-wise) codex that needs a serious overhaul.

Don't even get me started on I5 T4 Vespids...!!!

cK

Well I just view Kroot as

1- Meat Walls- They choke up assaulting units really fast, that is great for FW and Crisis Suits to get the heck out of there
2- Objective Holders- "Poop the Kroot" as I always say (if you quote me, quote me not steal) poop them on an objective and odds are they will stay their
3- Annoying- Just plain annoying, annoy your opponent and they annoy yourself, they make an exciting Tau game



Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yeah, feed Spike please

I would use what I would call target saturation. Tau standard weaponry is wounding on a 2+, so your instagibbing orks left right and centre. 12 firewarriors have a right to expect to kill 13 boyz (rapid firing) which is quite good, and pair that with kroot, and a possible second rapid fire, and those ork boys are getting quite thinned.

Pretty much firewarriors should be shooting the gak out of orks, and kroot are simpley assurance that they get the chance.

Kroot are decent assault troops when compared to the fire warriors they have to work with. Fire Warrirors, on the other hand, shine brightly when the enemy get within rapid fire range. Problem with this is, if ANY of the enemy troops survive being rapid fired (which large mobs of Orks and max squads of Tac Marines will do) the Tau are screwed because they're gimped in close combat (they're not gonna inflict enough wounds and are caught easily when they flee due to their low initiative). Here's where the Kroot come in, they are the scavengers who pick off whatever's left. charge in with a good size mob of them, they'll take care of the job. a good number of them will die, but your Fire Warriors can bring their weapons to bear on another unit. The process repeats until your opponent is good and dead.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Kroot have a number of uses. You just have to know how to use them in order for them to work.

Rule 1: You've got to accept that your Kroot are going to die, don't play them in a way to try and keep them alive as long as possible because that's a waste.

Assault: Kroot are pretty much the Taus only assault unit. Battlesuits can do it semi-decently but it isn't their intended role. That being said Kroot are very squishy and usually won't win in cc due to the reasons mentioned above. When using them in an assault it's best to use them as a road bump against foot slogging cc units (Black Templars, Space Wolves, Ork Mobs, Tyranid swarms) so that your Tau can redeploy so that they can best deal with the threat when the kroot are dead. Another thing is assaulting week cc units like snipers, IG squads etc. Kroot Hounds are a must in Kroot squads, their good inititive means they will usually attack first and possibly whittle down the enemies size, they then take the returning attacks which means you still have a good number of Kroot to attack. Krootox are a no no, yeah they're strong and have a Kroot Gun but that strength comes at a loss of mobility which is the Kroots biggest asset. And their are plenty of weapons in the Tau arsenal that do the same thing as a Kroot Gun and do it WAY better. Shapers are really only worth it for the Ld bonus but honestly it's more worth it to spend those points on more Kroot. And the 6+ save is useless, in 10 years of playing it has never been worth taking.

Counter Assault: This is pretty much the same thing as assaulting except in assaulting you're attacking the enemy on their own turf. Counter assaulting is intended to protect your Tau up close as their are often units that don't have to move across the board to get to your Tau (Kommandos, Space Wolf Scouts, Lictors) and so these are intended to be a rear guard speed bump.

Anti Infiltrate bubble: If you can deploy your kroot through infiltration in a curved line in cover this works great in preventing enemy infiltrators from getting to close and also acts as a counter assault unit mentioned above.

Gun Squad: A Kroot Rifle is actually a decent gun, not the best but decent. This combined with the Kroots fieldcraft ability can make them fairly annoying and effective gun squads if used in cover. Also cover saves are the best save that Kroot are going to get.

Objective Grabber: With the ability to outflank a large unit of Kroot with Kroot Hounds can be good great late game Objective Grabbers. If they are shot at then that's one less gun aimed at your Tau and if they're assaulted again that's one less unit assaulting your Tau but by that point the enemies assauly units are half way across the board or dead if you've used your guns right.

These are just some of the ways I have used Kroot. I field 3 units in my army and each unit can cover at least 2 of these purposes at 1 time. Players just have to remember that Kroot are going to die, you just have to find a way to make their deaths usefull.

And to the player who made the comment about just mounting up, moving away from the Orks, shoot and repeat.......good luck with that.

I made the comment about mounting up. But why wouldn't that work? (I do it with space marines, why not Tau?)

Remember that Tau Weapons are Rapid Fire. If you mount up and run away you'll have to stay still for a whole turn to fire at the longer range again. You'd have to do it when they're roughly 12 inches away, and you cant shoot at them (you'd be too far to rapid fire at them). After Disembarking you'll have to wait another turn before you can shoot (technically you still can shoot, but if you're within 12 inches of something else, it kinda defeats the purpose of mounting up and running away). You'd effectively have to back up 24 inches just to get enough distance to get another shot off. And that's assuming the Orks dont run.