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Just checking up on this fast: Black Templars Rechlysiarcs and Masters of Sanctity can take a pair of Lightning Claws, but they don't replace anything, leaving the chap with the LCs and his Crozius. My question is, does this work as normal when models need to choose between two special CCWs? I'd say yes, since it doesn't mention any exception in either the BT codex or the BRB, but I wanted to check with my fellow dakkites just to make sure.

Key word you are looking for is 'never'. As in models with two diefferent special weapons never get the +1 attack. Your Chaplain would have three special weapons, and if he has two (a subset of three) he cannot have +1 attack.

Be prepared for violent disagreement with my point of view, but never means never.

Ahh, Old Codex Syndrome(OCS).

The Problem truly lies with the Rulebooks, and formats for Wargear selection.

In 3rd edition when you had access to the armory and selected a weapon you also selected a Basic weapon to replace.

In 4th edition if you had access to the armory and selected a weapon you lost all your original weapons(Crap for Chaplains and Librarians who wanted better ranged weapons)

Now in 5th edition we have no such language(because Armories are being phased out for a new selection format); and so are left with Characters who have their base gear plus whatever they buy. Then you do have the line in the CC section that says if you wield 2 different special Weapons that you never gain the bonus attacks.

For those that argue that you are only using 1 weapon(or set of weapons with the paired Lightning claws) and therefore should get the Bonus attack: the 2 different weapons also tells us you only gain the benefits from 1 weapon per assault phase, so there would be no reason to tell us the rest of the "cannot ever gain bonus attack" rule since you are always attacking with the 1 weapon.

imo he would get +1a, if he didnt what would be the point of allowing him to take a pair of LC's? you can only use 2 weapons in cc and if you use the LC's ther is nothing to "choose" between.

a pair of LCs confers +1A...

you are not choosing to attack with a LC and your Crozius are you? Because those are 2 different special weapons, and would therefore cost you the +1A.

Swing with both the LCs and you are golden.

Spongemonkee: the point in the option is as I said; OCS, in the edition the Codex was writ you would have only had the pair of Lightning Claws if that is the option you chose.

Armbarred; You could not choose to attack with Crozius and lightning Claw even if those were the only 2 weapons you had. You only attack with 1 weapon at a time, it does not matter if you had a pair of 1 Special and a third Special. You get no Bonus if you have 2 different specials.

You would not expect to get a bonus attack for having 2 power Swords and a Relic blade would you?

Doesn't matter what you choose to attack with, as part of the rule covers choosing between weapon. In fact, it's the choosing that means the two different special weapons rule applies and kicks in the 'never' clause. Bear in mind that the two different special weapons rule is the ONLY rule that describes how to decide what you attack with when equipped with two different special weapons. All the other rules have defaults that cannot be applied in the case of a model with three or more weapon, with two of them being special weapons. So if you have to use that rule to decide what weapon you're going to use, just seems to me the rest of it applies as well. After all, if two special weapons is so confusing that it denies +1 attack, you think three or more makes it easier?

And you always only attack with one weapon, it's whether or not the second weapon gives you a bonus attack that's being debated. Two lightning claws is two weapons (especialy in the BT codex), the crozius is another. So he can choose to attack with any one of them, but the two special weapons rule and the intro prargraph spell it out very clearly. If your equipped with two weapons (and remember, two is a subset of three), then you don't get a bonus attack. Never means never. Nothing in the pair of lightning claws rule overrides that word 'never'.

But anyways, there have been numerous threads on this, so run some searches and you'll find them in all their multi-page glory. Have fun.

Do note that the Pair of Lightning claws is explicitly stated as being two weapons in the BT entry. The Player can choose to use those two as his "two weapons" and would thus be considered to be two of the same special weapons, and would gain the +1 attack. The "never" clause as you stated only kicks in if he only has 2 special weapons (which would be the case if the pair of lightning claws count as a single weapon). While indeed that you can argue that I'm using the same logic you're using to argue against your point, Lightning Claws are explicitly stated to grant a +1 attack if two of them are used.

And you people need to read the actual starting paragraph. It said "possible combinations", meaning that you choose a set of weapons to use before actually entering combat. That's your combination for the turn. If you chose to use a single lightning claw and a Crozius, you would then have to choose between what to use. If you chose to use two Lightning claws (again, they are considered to be two separate weapons) then you have no problem. There's a reason why the rulebooks doesnt specify what happens if a model has more than 2 weapons (because you can only ever fight in combat with 2).

This is the same long debate as with Calgar and his Dual PF + Power Sword.

Honestly, I would avoid the problem and never take the pair of LCs, since there's a fairly strong argument (now that Armouries are out of date) that the Chaplain cannot even take a pair of LCs, since he is already equipped with the crozius.

Give him a power fist instead, and enjoy the versatility.

...and the same as with Eldrad (pistol, Witchblade, staff).

Do note that, by RAW, it is never specified that a model's choice of weapons have any impact what so ever about the rules for different special weapons etc.. Also, should the pair have been a single item, it would have had a weapons profile in the codex which would've told you to use the weapon two-handed and with +1 A (should "Pair of Lightning Claws" not have a separate entry in the codex, the weapons would do absolutely nothing, since Lightning Claws in BRB only deals with a single at a time.)

What is not written is not written. Implied or intended are things we can only speculate about, and try to keep speculations at a minimum

Chaplains and LCs will definately become invalid when the book is updated. They were just flatout broken in the old rules, especially with the ability to consolidate into another combat in 4th ed. "Combat Hopping" made chaplains deadly when they had Jump Packs and LCs.

As long as you have a pair of lightning claws the model benefits from +1 attack. That's all there is to it.

I guess I just opened a can of worms, didn't I? I'm afraid that the "doesn't get any extra attack" side is the one I feel makes the most sense, and the chap doesn't get an extra A, since he has to choose which weapon to use. On a slightly related note though, why would he not be allowed to take a pair of LCs just because he has a crozius? Is there a rule about max amount of melee weapons or something?

You DO get to choose what you attack with. It is just like Marneus Calgar having the gauntlets of ultramar and a power sword. You may choose to swing with the power sword if you want to strike at initiative however you lose 1 attack because you are no longer using two similar special CC weapons. In your Chaplain example you could choose (although there is no benefit whatsoever for doing so) to forfeit the benefit of dual LCs in favor of striking with the crozius instead.

The only real argument for the dual LCs granting +1 Attack is the argument that you lose the Crozius when selecting the LCs.

On page 30, under options: "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated."

But like I said, it's one of those back and forth arguments that doesn't really affect that much of the game. It's only one attack after all. Best solution is take one LC (for cheaper) and avoid the argument, since it probably won't go anywhere productive. Or give him a power fist.

Unfortunately anyone arguing that you wouldnt get +1 attack for the LC is clearly violating the spirit of the rules (since getting that +1 is the entire point of getting a pair of lightning claws). Any player with common sense wouldn't argue it, and most judges would side with you. It's only the truely dickish powergamers would argue it with the strict definition of the RAW, and even then you have a pretty good position to argue for the +1 attack anyways.

"NEVER" is fairly strong.

It isnt dickish; it worked fine in 3rd and 4th ed, 5th ed has more restrictive rules.

Asking someone to follow the current rules isnt being "powergamer" at all. Just wanting someone to follow the rules, so they are playing the same game as you are.

it's being dickish because it's violating what the designers evidently intended for the written rules. If a pair of LCs were some obscure piece of wargear (like the Holy Orb of Antioch, which I still have no clue what it actually does despite owning the codex) then it's forgivable that it's some oversight and the one arguing against it has a point. But most players should know what a pair of lightning claws does, what the designers meant for it to do, and how to use it. Arguing using a half-ass worded line of rule just so you can deny your opponent one attack from such a well-known weapon is pretty dickish in my books, and it's also violating the Most Important Rule as well.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:it's being dickish because it's violating what the designers evidently intended for the written rules.

Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeill, Gav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka.

Hi Graham McNeill, Gav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!

okay... theres alot of posts here and I haven't got time to read them all. It's getting late.

A pair of Lightning Claws gives you +1. Correct!

Use of A Lightning Claw and the Crozious negates the bonus. Correct?

Since the Crozious does nothing for you, (no strength increase like a PF or re-rolls like Master Crafted) because it's just a power weapon... wouldn't you always use the LC's and leave the Crozious in the back of the Rhino?

When you are armed with 1 Special and 1 normal, or 2 of the same special Close combat weapons, you have no choice as to what you make your attacks with. If your Weapons are both 1-handed, or do not otherwise state you cannot gain a bonus attack with them(looking at you relic blade), then you gain a bonus attack. this bonus attack does not mean that you are making attacks with both weapons, it is merely a bonus attack by virtue of equipment(that which you wield).

Only when you are armed with two different Special weapons do you ever have a choice of which weapon you fight with. Now, note the singularity of that word Weapon this is also how they term it in the BRB by the way. It does not matter if you are equiped with a thousand Lightning Claws, if you have another different special close combat weapon you still must choose which 1 weapon you fight with, and by virtue of needing to make that choice you negate any 2-weapon bonus attacks possible.

In the case of the Chaplain with Bolt pistol, Crozius and 2 lightning claws you never ever gain the benefit of 2 weapons because you must always choose between fighting with just the crozius or just 1 of your 2 lightning claws.

There you have your RAW absolute answer; RAW you only choose to use 1 weapon when you have the chouce of what weapons to use in Close Combat, and of course you only ever have the choice when 2 different special weapons are available.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:it's being dickish because it's violating what the designers evidently intended for the written rules. If a pair of LCs were some obscure piece of wargear (like the Holy Orb of Antioch, which I still have no clue what it actually does despite owning the codex) then it's forgivable that it's some oversight and the one arguing against it has a point. But most players should know what a pair of lightning claws does, what the designers meant for it to do, and how to use it. Arguing using a half-ass worded line of rule just so you can deny your opponent one attack from such a well-known weapon is pretty dickish in my books, and it's also violating the Most Important Rule as well.

I'm a BT player, and I still object to your logic.

How do you know that Chaplains were intended to get +1A with dual Lightning Claws in 5th edition? The most recent set of primary rules (aka the BRB) makes a big deal about models wielding multiple special weapons, so one could argue just as easily that GW felt that Chaplains should NOT get the +1 Attack. There's really no way to know what they intended here.

The rules in this case are reasonably clear. The Chaplain has multiple special weapons, therefore does not get +1 Attack. The only argument otherwise is that he loses the crozius when he upgrades, which is debatable. Furthermore, there's a case to be made that he cannot even take a pair of LCs (which Gwar! can explain I'm sure).

I'm not sure how it violates the "Most Important Rule" to be denied a single LC attack. Assaulting out of BT Land Raiders, sure, but this?

Also, I'm not sure how you're confused about the Holy Orb of Antioch. It's an impressive and effective piece of wargear that explicitly states how to use it.

geordie09 wrote:okay... theres alot of posts here and I haven't got time to read them all. It's getting late.

A pair of Lightning Claws gives you +1. Correct!

Use of A Lightning Claw and the Crozious negates the bonus. Correct?

Since the Crozious does nothing for you, (no strength increase like a PF or re-rolls like Master Crafted) because it's just a power weapon... wouldn't you always use the LC's and leave the Crozious in the back of the Rhino?

Not quite. Models wielding multiple special weapons (e.g. Lightning Claw, Lightning Claw, Crozius) do not get a bonus. The fact that you have the crozius denies you the +1 Attack, as you must follow the rules for 2 different special weapons (you choose which to use that turn, and do not gain the +1 Attack, simply for having different ones - even if they are not used).

However the Lightning Claws fulfills the requirements of having Two of the Same Special Close Combat Weapons. And again I must point out that in the introductory paragraph of the section, it lists those as "Different Possible Combinations". The Two Different Special Close combat weapons only come into argument if The Chaplain only holds a single lightning Claw and the Crozius.

EDIT: @ Xcaliber: Well for one, the Lightning claw is stated to give you a +1 attack when you have a second one (Which is what is stated under the "exceptions" for where the lightning claw appears in under "A normal close combat weapon and a special Close combat weapon" and indirectly implied under "Two of the Same Special Close Combat weapon" as the lightning claw fulfills that criteria). And indeed they make a big deal about models ARMED WITH ONLY TWO WEAPONS. Show me where it addresses models armed with 3 or more weapons.

And I never said I was confused about how to use a Holy Orb, I just didnt know what it does. It's (again) an obscured piece of wargear that if there was ever a dispute about the rules it would be understandable.

I think these kinds of forum topics (rules discussions that throw the spirit of the game in the face of every well-intentioned player) are funny because if anyone ever told me I could not use dual lightning claws b/c the unit originally had another special weapon i would pack up my stuff immediately. Actually I would be sure to smack their largest, most heavy, all metal model on the floor before packing up.

Deuce11 wrote:I think these kinds of forum topics (rules discussions that throw the spirit of the game in the face of every well-intentioned player) are funny because if anyone ever told me I could not use dual lightning claws b/c the unit originally had another special weapon i would pack up my stuff immediately. Actually I would be sure to smack their largest, most heavy, all metal model on the floor before packing up.

Yes, and the person wanting to play by the rules is the immature one. </sarcasm>

You yourself said the rules are badly worded. Only an immature person would force another to go by the strict wording of a rulebook and apply the logic of a hardwired computer to a game designed for humans.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:However the Lightning Claws fulfills the requirements of having Two of the Same Special Close Combat Weapons. And again I must point out that in the introductory paragraph of the section, it lists those as "Different Possible Combinations". The Two Different Special Close combat weapons only come into argument if The Chaplain only holds a single lightning Claw and the Crozius.

No, it comes into play anytime the Chaplain has another Special weapon other than the Crozius.

In 4th Edition when the Codex came out if the Chaplain chose to purchase a pair of lightning Claws, he did indeed lose the Crozius(hell he lost it if he chose 1 lightning Claw, or even if he bought a Plasma Pistol); so yes when the codex was written he was clearly intended to be able to benefit from the pair of Lightning Claws, because that was RAW at the time. Sadly this is no longer the case because The RAW has changed.

Again i will state this, but slightly more clearly: When you are equipped with 2 different Special Close combat weapons you you choose which weapon, and only that one weapon, to fight with in any given close combat. Were it the way that many of you are saying then the Chaplain could also fight with his crozius and gain a bonus attack because you could choose to have him fight with Crozius and bolt pistol. "Pair of lightning Claws" is also not a single weapon; we know this because your codex tells you it is 2 weapons.

If you have a Lightning Claw, a Lightning Claw, and a Crozius, you have 2 different special weapons. You also happen to have 3 weapons, but as long as any two of them are different, you must follow the rules for 2 different special weapons.

Thus, no bonus.

You could put a million weapons on the model, and as long as any two of them are different special weapons, you would not gain any bonus attacks.

EDIT: The Holy Orb of Antioch is a grenade. It's based on the humorous "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" of Monty Python fame.

Gwar! wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I think these kinds of forum topics (rules discussions that throw the spirit of the game in the face of every well-intentioned player) are funny because if anyone ever told me I could not use dual lightning claws b/c the unit originally had another special weapon i would pack up my stuff immediately. Actually I would be sure to smack their largest, most heavy, all metal model on the floor before packing up.

Yes, and the person wanting to play by the rules is the immature one. </sarcasm>

Don't get me wrong, it would be an accident [sarcasm (indicated specifically for those without the reading comprehension to recognize sarcasm without it pointed out to them.)]

geordie09 wrote:okay... theres alot of posts here and I haven't got time to read them all. It's getting late.

A pair of Lightning Claws gives you +1. Correct!

Use of A Lightning Claw and the Crozious negates the bonus. Correct?

Since the Crozious does nothing for you, (no strength increase like a PF or re-rolls like Master Crafted) because it's just a power weapon... wouldn't you always use the LC's and leave the Crozious in the back of the Rhino?

No, doesn't matter which one (or two) you use. Possession of both negates the bonus, having to choose between them negates the bonus. Doesn't matter what you choose to attack with. Show me where it describes how you choose which special weapon to use. And then read the entire rule, to include the sentence containing the word "never".

Nuff said?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The Two Different Special Close combat weapons only come into argument if The Chaplain only holds a single lightning Claw and the Crozius.

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

Does the Chaplain have two different special weapons? Does the Chaplain have to choose between two different special weapons?

Yes to both, which means "never" kicks in and the rule says I don't care what other weapons you might have, never means never and is going to override any other rules (barring them saying they overrule this one, of course).

And for those wanting to argue intent......... Yeah, two special weapons is too complex (such is the penalty" bit) so having more than that makes it easier? Yeah, right, and I've always found juggling 4 or 5 balls easier than juggling 3 balls. Not! Sure, the two lighting claws rule says +1 attack, as long as those are the only special weapons you are equipped with. Add more stuff, and it all starts going downhill as you start trying to juggle those extra balls and wind up dropping more than you catch.