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Wanted to try my hand at dreaming up an 1850 BA DoA list for a Raven Guard successor chapter I'm considering working on. Consequently, I wanted it to have more infantry-based shooting than a standard BA list, and also a healthy dose of scouts. C&C much appreciated.

The Sanguinor - 275
Librarian w/ Jump Pack (Unleash Rage & Fear of the Darkness)
5 Honor Guard - Jump Packs, 4x Combi-meltas - 205
5 Honor Guard - Jump Packs, 4x Combi-meltas - 205

2 Sanguinary Priests - Jump Packs

10 Assault Marines - Sergeant w/ Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns - 235
10 Assault Marines - Sergeant w/ Power Fist, 2x Flamers - 225
10 Scouts - Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks - 170

5 Vanguard Veterans - Jump Packs, Sergeant w/ Power Fist & Storm Shield, 4x Lightning Claws - 255

Total: 1845
Models: 49

Looks quite good. Scouts are quite fluffy in a Raven Guard army.
I'd drop the Sanguinor for another standard Librarian. This gives you points for another Scout or VV (jump packs and power fist only) squad.

If I was going to run this list I'd just run as many of your 10 man Assult Squads as possible with enough Priests to support them.

If your going to deep strike this army, the only thing your going to have on the board during your first turn is the scouts, don't expect to keep them.

Consider this. You have three units, the two Honor Guard and the Veterans that cost almost as much a full Assult Squad each, replaceing them with Assult Marines would double the number of wounds you have on the field.

Yeah, the Scouts would be the only target in a DoA army in which the jump packers deep strike.
They will get under heavy fire.
I'd consider outflanking Scouts mounted in a Storm.
But they will eventually show up in the game rather late,
since they don't benefit from DoA (reroll of appearance).

I would suggest taking out the sanguinor and the scouts, and exchanging them for another squad of assault marines (3-6 scoring units is always good) and either add in a librarian, or make the vanguard unit 10 men strong with some additional storm shields - you can either combat squad them or use it as your giant hammer unit.

Catyrpelius wrote:If your going to deep strike this army, the only thing your going to have on the board during your first turn is the scouts, don't expect to keep them.

Not true, as they have a 3+ cover save (or a 2+ if they choose to go to ground). In fact, going to ground makes them pretty much invulnerable until the 3rd turn (or 2nd if your opponent goes first) where they'll have the support of the rest of the army and can then act freely. I've seen scouts do amazing things, and having T4 in cover with camo cloaks, they are pretty resilient.

Catyrpelius wrote:Consider this. You have three units, the two Honor Guard and the Veterans that cost almost as much a full Assult Squad each, replaceing them with Assult Marines would double the number of wounds you have on the field.

Well, not exactly. You're just talking about "number of wounds" and not "competency in the role they were designed to perform". Sure, 30 models sounds better than 15, but you have to understand that you're basically ignoring quality for quantity. Those 15 uuber guys will tear apart the same if not more than 30 bland guys will, and according to his build they will be able to deal with armor where 30 bland guys can't. Now, I don't necessarily agree with his build on the honor guard but melta=good nonetheless (and I'll talk more on those 15 guys later).

wuestenfux wrote:I'd consider outflanking Scouts mounted in a Storm.

Blood Angels cannot take a Land Speeder Storm.



Otherwise, this list seems "okay", but your Honor Guard and Vanguard Vets bug me. Well here's my opinion.

First of all, I think Sanguinor is waaaaay too expensive for 1850 and IMO should be used starting in 2,000. For his price you can have Mephiston AND half a Sang Priest. Sure, he grants the +1 attack bubble but it's only units within 6", and if you're hovering near him that opens up scary opportunities for your opponent's blast weapons. I'd look at Commander Dante, who not only reduces the stats of an enemy HQ (nearly crippling it), but allows the unit he attaches to to not scatter when they Deep Strike, and he has an Infernus Pistol (not to mention he's quite good in hand-to-hand).

Next, I do like your Librarian. Unleash Rage is one of my favorite powers because it grants Preferred Enemy EVERY TIME he casts it, so him and the unit he's with are extra awesome, instead of in the first round only like when a Chaplain is attached. Also, Fear of the Darkness is a very underrated power. Granting a -2 to an enemy's Leadership and then forcing them to make a test can be crucial. Not only do most armies suffer from an average Leadership (excluding MEQ) and can be victim to this power, but it can be used to make a falling back unit immediately fall back more (as they auto fail all morale test they are called upon to make).

And now we get to those 15 guys I was talking about.

5 Honor Guard do NOT need 4x Combi-Meltas. Combi-Meltas are 10 points each, and once you fire them, the "Meltagun" portion is GONE. Why would you then want Honor Guard with Bolters? You might as well spend the same 10 points and give them actual Meltaguns, but even then 5 Honor Guard do NOT need 4x Meltaguns.

Build the 5 like this:
-Sanguinary Novitiate (he also holds the chapter banner)
-Honor Guard with Power Weapon
-Honor Guard with Power Weapon
-Honor Guard with Infernus Pistol
-Honor Guard with Infernus Pistol

Yes, that's 50 more points, and having two of them like that means you need to lose 100 points, but when you make some other changes, I think you'll be much happier with the choppyness of your army.

And as for your Vanguard, try this instead for only 15 points more:
-Sergeant (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)

Again, yes I made the unit more expensive by 15 points, but now you've got a unit that has 16 power weapon attacks and 16 regular attacks, and that increases to S5 I5 with FnP if within 6" of a Sang Priest when it's time for them to roll the dice in combat (see the FAQ). That leaves you plenty of time in the movement phase to get a Sang Priest nearby and pretty much wipe the unit they assault.

Unfortunately however, the above posters are correct that using sniper scouts (or scouts at all) in this list does not jive with the theme presented (DoA). For 9 more points you can have an 8-man Assault Squad with a Meltagun and a Power Weapon Sergeant.

Now before people get all angry and start a war, it is important to understand that I'm just trying to provide options. Sure I made the units more expensive, but I don't expect the OP to copy-paste these units into his list when he's likely competent enough to customize them enough to suit his needs. I'm just making the point that the Honor Guard, Vanguard Vets, and other similar units like the Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are all points-sinks if you're not careful, and that's the trap I think you've fallen into.

Also, as for my lack of Power Fists, that's what Meltaguns and Infernus Pistols are for. I have played INSANE amounts of games with my Blood Angels in 5th Edition, and I can tell you from experience that I have NEVER run into a situation where I wished I had a Power Fist instead of the Power Weapon (which grants the +1 attack for being a CCW). I don't want this to sound rude, but a smart player will deal with certain threats (Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons) appropriately before BAM committing all of his squishy assault units to an area patrolled by said threats.

Just my 2¢.

Im going to agree with mr dbgoldberg on the combimeltas in the honor guard being a bad idea. Im going to disagree with him on the layout that he selected tho. Ive been using 2 honor guards with 4 meltas and 4 flamers EACH. Using Dante drops 5 melta weapons down within double dice range, and that vehicle dies, hands down. Then after they blast 2 or 3 tanks, they jump over to a unit and lay down 4 flamers and make them disappear. Its 225pts for that squad, the same as what Goldberg said, but has a higher potential output as well as versatility. Also, I dont need the choppy aspect of them very much as I use lots of Sang Guard. So they fill a needed fire support role for me. Thats just my two cents worth.

Thats not a bad idea I like using sanguinary guard but i didn't really know how to do decent fire support but hey this seems like a good idea I think i'm going to try this.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:If your going to deep strike this army, the only thing your going to have on the board during your first turn is the scouts, don't expect to keep them.

Not true, as they have a 3+ cover save (or a 2+ if they choose to go to ground). In fact, going to ground makes them pretty much invulnerable until the 3rd turn (or 2nd if your opponent goes first) where they'll have the support of the rest of the army and can then act freely. I've seen scouts do amazing things, and having T4 in cover with camo cloaks, they are pretty resilient.

That was my thinking on them as well. I didn't like the notion of hanging them out to dry on turn one while everything else was waiting to DS, thus they got the Camo Cloaks to go to ground if necessary.

First of all, I think Sanguinor is waaaaay too expensive for 1850 and IMO should be used starting in 2,000.

He's extremely expensive, but he's also extremely good. Not much else in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry.

For his price you can have Mephiston AND half a Sang Priest.

Yeah, but Mephiston can't Deep Strike.

5 Honor Guard do NOT need 4x Combi-Meltas. Combi-Meltas are 10 points each, and once you fire them, the "Meltagun" portion is GONE. Why would you then want Honor Guard with Bolters?

That was a fluffy choice, in an effort to get more shooting into the army.

Build the 5 like this:
-Sanguinary Novitiate (he also holds the chapter banner)
-Honor Guard with Power Weapon
-Honor Guard with Power Weapon
-Honor Guard with Infernus Pistol
-Honor Guard with Infernus Pistol

Meh. I dislike Infernus Pistols immensely. Their range is just too short for what they do.

And as for your Vanguard, try this instead for only 15 points more:
-Sergeant (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (Power Sword, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)
-Vanguard Vet (CCW, BP)

I think your math's off quite a bit here, I tally this squad at 315.

Anyway, I know the Scouts will be underperformers, and I agree that the HG setup isn't optimal. I'd probably prefer to run them as 4x Meltaguns, 4xPlasmaguns. The Scouts are there, as mentioned, just to get some more shooting into the list; Raven Guard aren't a pure assault army like the Blood Angels, not to mention Scouts are a very fluffy RG choice.

Seaward wrote:

First of all, I think Sanguinor is waaaaay too expensive for 1850 and IMO should be used starting in 2,000.

He's extremely expensive, but he's also extremely good. Not much else in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry.

Seaward wrote:That was my thinking on them as well. I didn't like the notion of hanging them out to dry on turn one while everything else was waiting to DS, thus they got the Camo Cloaks to go to ground if necessary.

Yup. Not bad at all.

Seaward wrote:He's extremely expensive, but he's also extremely good. Not much else in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry.

Well, no tricked-out Thunderlord I know gives two gaks about Sanguinor. He's not amazing; he is still T4. Sure, he has a 2+/3++ and FnP if within 6" of a Sang Priest and all that, but he's easily wound-able and that means lotsa saves! The correct phrase is "Nothing in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry." That's what the Thunderlord does, hunts and kills things as he pleases with his 300-ish pt cost.

Seaward wrote:Yeah, but Mephiston can't Deep Strike.

Meph doesn't need to (24" threat range). Agreed, you're going for a DoA army and thus he has no place in the list, but I was simply saying that Meph is cheaper and he does WAY more. Just trying to use him to show the fact that Sanguinor is slightly over-costed.

Seaward wrote:That was a fluffy choice, in an effort to get more shooting into the army.

No complaints from me then, just was going for optimization.

Seaward wrote:Meh. I dislike Infernus Pistols immensely. Their range is just too short for what they do.

True, but it's not the size, it's how ya use it.

Seaward wrote:I think your math's off quite a bit here, I tally this squad at 315.

Actually it comes to 300, but I honestly copy/pasted one too many guys. It's supposed to be 7 total Vanguard Vets. 1 Sarge, 3 PW dudes, and 3 normal, for 270. 15 points more for 2 more dudes which = better durability + more attacks.

Seaward wrote:Anyway, I know the Scouts will be underperformers, and I agree that the HG setup isn't optimal. I'd probably prefer to run them as 4x Meltaguns, 4xPlasmaguns. The Scouts are there, as mentioned, just to get some more shooting into the list; Raven Guard aren't a pure assault army like the Blood Angels, not to mention Scouts are a very fluffy RG choice.

Oh, I getcha on the Raven Guard theme, but EVERYTHING can be explained away as RG (counts as). You're on the right track, using Codex: Blood Angels to represent your Raven Guard (even though Codex: Space Marines does it quite well), but by using C:BA your concept (to me) seems like you prefer a more assaulty list, hence my recommendations.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:Well, no tricked-out Thunderlord I know gives two gaks about Sanguinor. He's not amazing; he is still T4. Sure, he has a 2+/3++ and FnP if within 6" of a Sang Priest and all that, but he's easily wound-able and that means lotsa saves! The correct phrase is "Nothing in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry." That's what the Thunderlord does, hunts and kills things as he pleases with his 300-ish pt cost.

Actually, if you run the math, I think you'll be pretty surprised.

Seaward wrote:Actually, if you run the math, I think you'll be pretty surprised.

Sure, I might be, but you're forgetting that Mr. Big Bad Wolfie Daddy guy is surrounded by TWC that smash face. Sanguinor will have a tough time with TWC AND the Thunderlord. And remember Longfangs can be used to put nearby honorguards to death so he can be surrounded by TW-riding mofo's.

Here are my quick thoughts:

The Vanguard vets need a power fist and the sergeant can take one at a discounted cost. I'd drop a couple Marines in the unit for some stormshields so you can shrug off units like Long Fangs. The vets with stormshields should have lightning claws.

If you are going to run the Sanguinor get rid of the scouts as you dont want to risk one of these two sergeants receiving the blessing. I would switch them out for landspeeders as they will integrate well with DoA and you can deepstrike them. My thought is the Sanguinor is well worth his points. He is your one jump pack HQ that can beat down other uber HQ like Abbadon. Mephiston does not work as well with DoA as the Sanguinor.

Your HG need some work, four combi meltas? If you are going to run them shooty then just go with meltaguns. If it were me I'd take a couple power weapons, power fist and a pair of infernus pistols. Stormshields also are worth the cost for HG if you want to run them choppy.

Here is how I'd run the assault squads:

meltagun/flamer & power fist/infernus pistol

You can always combat squad one unit if you feel you need another scoring unit.

Seaward wrote:

First of all, I think Sanguinor is waaaaay too expensive for 1850 and IMO should be used starting in 2,000.

He's extremely expensive, but he's also extremely good. Not much else in the BA 'dex can make a tricked-out Thunderlord cry.

Mephiston?