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So, in my FLGC, we have a player who most of us are trying to avoid right now.....Mainly because he runs a ridiculous, WAAC, list that only works because nothing says it can't. I can't give you specifics but his list--as I recall from when I played him--is:

GK Grand Master w/ Psycannon
5 Grey Knight Terminators
2, 10 man Grey Knight Squads mounted in Vendettas
2, 10 man Melta Veteran Squads mounted in Vendettas
Leman Russ Demolisher


Now, I just have to ask the dakka commmunity: a) is this pure cheese, or are we just bad players and even sorer losers? b) is this even LEGAL? One other thing we've questioned is starting the Grey Knights inside the Vendettas....I personally can't think of a reason why that's illegal, but it's a commonly heard complaint.

That's not cheesy at all.

I don't think this is an illegal list. I think it follows all the rules of allying some GK elements in to an IG force.

I don;t consider it that cheesy, if that's truly all he;s packing. I don;t know what your army looks like right now, but certainly the IG has way to deal with everything he's throwing at you. It doesn't even seem like he's got the cheesier bits of the Daemonhunters codex, like mystic and such.

Hydras to take down the Valks. If he's got 4 of them, at least 2 have to be in a squadron. This works to your advantage, since there are now 3 (instead of 2) damage chart results that will allow you to take one down, and you can kill them with glances by getting that result. Remember, Immobilizing part of a squadron destroys that model.

What strategy does he use with the Grey Knights in the Vendettas?

As for the Terminators, Leman Russ Executioners are a good way to deal with them, as is simply massed lasgun fire.

As for the Demolisher, I remember you having more than a few lascannons in your army, no? They're long ranged, it's short range. I think we can both see where this is going.

Anyway, good luck. At the very least, he might not be able to run this list come February or March, if the codex concerning the new GK codex pan out.

the list is illegal in one of 2 ways:

If it is a pure Daemonhunters List(with some units as inducted IG), neither the Vendettas, nor the veterans are valid choices.

If it is an IG list with Daemonhunter Allies; He does not have the Compulsory HQ choice(which must be from the "parent list")

Kommissar Kel wrote:the list is illegal in one of 2 ways:

If it is a pure Daemonhunters List(with some units as inducted IG), neither the Vendettas, nor the veterans are valid choices.

If it is an IG list with Daemonhunter Allies; He does not have the Compulsory HQ choice(which must be from the "parent list")

Like he said, he can't remember all the specifics lol

Honestly, this list is pretty damn easy to take down. Kill vendettas, win the game. simple.

I'm guessing this is 2k+ points as well.

The problem I see is that the DH list was designed to synergize with the 3rd edition IG and SM codices. Using it with newer codices has the inherent flaw that there are more options available than were anticipated when DH was written.

I find the term cheese to be rather silly. If they're not violating the rules of game, or exploiting some dubiously worded obscure loophole in the RaW what exactly is the problem?

Chongara wrote:I find the term cheese to be rather silly. If they're not violating the rules of game, or exploiting some dubiously worded obscure loophole in the RaW what exactly is the problem?

Exactly. WAAC shouldnt be a bad thing if their a serious gamer their allowed to be WAAC. TFG is the bad thing.

Now I'm not all that familiar with Grey Knights, having only played against them twice... but I just don't understand what's so cheesy about this list?

My 1,500 vanilla Marine list should be able to take care of it with ease, and it's not exactly a power gaming list.

A lone Leman Russ can easily be take care of by a Dreadnought/Drop Pod or some assault scouts...

Vendetta are good for killing transport, but not so great at killing troops and they aren't all that solid themselves.

Veteran die easy once out of their transport, Grey Knight aren't much tougher than normal Marines... and he's only got 2 troops.

I'm assuming the GM is with the Terminators, and while that is a beastly unit (And I must admit I don't have all that much I can do against them), they can't be everywhere and are relatively slow... that's usually how I deal with Terminator on foot - let them be.

I think this is an example of why I shouldn't post at about 1 in the morning, especially after getting back from the gaming club, but alright. I'm not 100% sure I've gotten everything on his list, but I know I forgot to add on that he takes a Primaris Psyker, so he does satisfy that one HQ choice from the parent army, apparently. Ah well.

But yes, I'm willing to bet that the cause of my defeat was the fact that I took a very poor list for 1000 points (teamed up with SM with 1000 pts vs his 2000 pts). I think if I built a 2000 point list specifically to take him on, I'd be able to do that. Just need a few Hydras.....

But yes, thanks for your input dakka, I'll let others know the verdict. I'd have to admit the thing that did me in last game was the Scout Move by the Vendettas to drop off the Grey Knights within spitting distance of my firing line. That's what screwed us over in the end, and I'm hoping I'll be able to fix that problem if I face him again.

The list is legal from an IG codex perspective. How can a legal list be cheesy? As others have said it's not that hard to deal with and since you know what he's bringing then you have a large strategic advantage.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:The list is legal from an IG codex perspective. How can a legal list be cheesy? As others have said it's not that hard to deal with and since you know what he's bringing then you have a large strategic advantage.

It's entirely possible for a legal list to be cheesy. E.g. 9 Vendettas. Of course, NOW I know what he's taking and can deal with it easily, but beforehand that wasn't the case. Looking at the defeat when I'm not very tired and just want to sleep, I'm realizing that the reasons for my defeat are not, "He has a cheesy list", but more "I had a crappy list (made up right before the game)*, and I need to fix that." I'll be taking a much harder, well thought out, list to face him next time. Hopefully one that will do more damage.


*Yes, it was a pickup game.

It's not legal, HQ and troops must be from parent codex. DH can't take Vendettas.

ChrisWWII wrote: he takes a Primaris Psyker,

That alone disqualifies it from being a cheesy list. A Primaris Psyker, generally, isn't a unit a cheese mongering WAAC player would look twice at.

Calling ANY list with grey knights cheesy is false.. If it were true every single list in the game would be cheesy because GK are quite possibly the worst army in the game

Yeah, I think I was being a bit harsh early on when I labeled this a 'cheesy WAAC' thing.....I'll have to remember to not do threads like this when my brain is half dead.

Commander Endova wrote:
That alone disqualifies it from being a cheesy list. A Primaris Psyker, generally, isn't a unit a cheese mongering WAAC player would look twice at.

Yeah, that I would have to agree with.Thinking about it critically this really isn't that tough to crack....I'm not sure why the local scene has labeled this 'totally cheeesy and unfair'.
Ah well, this is what dakka is for, getting more opinions so that we don't get too overly insular. Once again, thanks guys.

I have to apologize for my OP though. As was said, my description was a bit harsh....and I'm regretting the language I used.