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2022/10/04 08:45:44
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
I am about halfway through season 11… the show continues to be mediocre in my opinion but I feel invested in several of the characters and I keep hoping it will get better. Fear the Walking Dead rewarded me for my patience even if it later let me down again. I just wish the Walking Dead shows were better. There is so much potential in the setting and there are some great characters in the various shows.
When Rick “left” I thought that would be the end of it for me but fair play, the showrunners kept me coming back (I can not seem to turn down more Morgan and Daryl at the very least)… and got me watching the spin-offs. I still need to see the show about the USS Pennsylvania (although I am pretty pessimistic about how good it will be) and more of Tales of the Walking Dead (I only saw episode 1 but Terry Crews was awesome).
As for the newly announced spin-offs…
Spoiler:
I am not sure how I feel about more Negan and Maggie, their weird relationship has not been much fun for me as it seems so outrageous. Exploring Negan's backstory was fun but his “redemption arc” has been pretty inconsistent. Maybe that is realistic but I am not sure it makes for good storytelling. The show seems so arbitrary, so inconsistent in the decision making, on who people kill and who they spare. But being from Upstate New York myself, yes I am keen to see NYC of the Walking Dead.
And as much as I love Daryl, as much as I want to see Europe of the Walking Dead (given I have lived in Europe the last couple of decades), I am afraid we are going to end up in France… exploring more of the original outbreak as well as the new development of “runners” instead of “walkers”. A development I am not keen on at all.
Most of all I really, really wish Walking Dead would hire (and listen to) better military and police technical advisors.
Spoiler:
The raid on the military base in the beginning season 11 made no sense at all. Why not methodically just kill all of the zombies one at a time with bows/slings then get all the weapons, ammo and food there… instead of a half assed smash and grab? Ugh. Especially with starvation around the corner.
And the mercenaries? Looked and acted more like the biker gangs we have seen previously… not professionally trained veteran combat troops. And the leader had to be a powertripping, religious madman? Really? Where is the depth in that? Very disappointing. It would have been interesting to see the group actually using military procedures and protocols, training, doing rehearsals, operation orders, discussing sop's, setting up sector stakes on fighting positions, moving in formations etc. Instead we got masked horrors of the dark, then a sniper in a ghillie suit, then back to more masked monsters from The Purge with night time slasher tactics, then suddenly black clad bikers with basic room clearing tactics. It felt like the writers were inspired by the wrong parts of Apocalypse Now.
Still better than the Resident Evil tv series though I suppose.
2022/10/04 19:10:08
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
The Reapers (thanks for reminding me of the name of the Purge-like group that I forgot the name of) came across more like just another biker gang than the US Army trained combat veterans they were supposed to be. The ghillie wearing “sniper” and the Reaper leader in particular came across more as a militia wannabe soldiers than a trained combat veterans. Even Negan's Saviors came across more real world military than the Reapers. Not that the Saviors were very soldierly.
There have been soldiers, sailors and cops in the show… Fear of the Walking Dead had uniformed troops at the start (remember the one US soldier who gets tortured by one of the protagonists?), Walking Dead had Abe and the soldiers the Governor ambushed, World Beyond had several military characters, including scenes of uniformed troops at the outbreak. Generally they have been portrayed as incompetent and unprofessional (the protagonist who tortured the US Soldier I mentioned earlier is an exception on the competence to a certain degree, his physical skills seem fine but he has severe mental health issues that degrade his overall competence) and almost all of them as just not very soldier like. Same for the Cops in Atlanta. Uniformed bullies looking out for themselves… which may be how a lot of non-Cops see the Police but from my experience not very authentic to real Cops. Rick in the beginning came across to me as an actual Cop trying to adjust to a new paradigm even if his behavior was not technically very cop-like most of the time. It is part of what originally drew me into the show. But the more I watched the more it looked like Rick was a stereotype of a “good cop” and Shane a stereotype of a “bad cop” from the perspective of people who have never made an arrest themselves.
I have been a soldier and a cop. There are certain things, certain habits and mannerisms that form part of the culture surrounding those fields. Any veteran on this board should know what I am talking about. Is is not just fingers off the trigger and shouting clear after entering room. Captain Dale Dye and his folks at Warriors Inc. have a way of bringing those things that bring authenticity to the screen when they are listened to… which is not often enough.
If a show can not speak with authenticity to give a voice for soldiers and cops then I would rather they just stick with the voices they can do justice to. So sure focus on civilians surviving the zombie apocalypse and keep the military off screen… or just hire and listen to some of the numerous veterans looking for work right now.
I am surprised there is not more talk about the big reveal at the end of Walking Dead: World Beyond…
Spoiler:
… regarding the origin of the outbreak being France and not it looks like it has mutated there now to create “runners” with short term memories. That seems like a real paradigm shift to the IP. Especially with news that Daryl will be going to Europe in a spin-off. I am not a big fan of “runners” generally but I know others feel otherwise from the polls I have previously posted..
I do not think the universe is milked to death largely because there are plenty of things I would have liked to see explored that were ignored so far.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 07:21:47
2022/10/07 18:47:28
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I wouldn’t know because I’m British and we’re seemingly not allowed it :(
It is frustrating that these are not more readily available overseas from the States given the global nature of the Internet.
I caught episode 1 on YouTube, the one with Terry Crews. It was pretty good… but really only because of him. There were some very annoying plotholes but his charm helped me ignore them. I love that guy.
EDIT: I am surprised to find he second half of season 11 much more interesting than the first half. The Commonwealth plot should not be that engaging as it seems like going over well worn old ground but for some reason it has captured my attention and I am starting to care what happens next there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/09 08:49:36
2022/10/14 05:21:44
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Just got around to watching it and have to say the death was quite shocking actually.
Spoiler:
clearly going in a much different direction than the comic. Who’s going to be the final big bad now? Lance? Pamela? I like the way in the comic Pamela was willing to lock up her own son for the sake of society. It was what finally showed that civilization is back. I don’t know how they’re going to pull that off now.
I have not read the comic but it does sound like I would prefer how the comic handled that.
Spoiler:
I think there was a clue that Pamela is just as bad as Lance in that she demanded Mercer to protect her and he said his job was not to protect her but instead to protect the Commonwealth. Pamela accuses Lance of putting himself before the Commonwealth several times but she seems to be a hypocrite and does it too.
I wish the show had further explored the idea that Maggie is in her own way as much of an autocrat as Pamela is… but that she puts her people before herself.
2022/10/18 08:40:47
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Fear The Walking Dead isn’t, so far as I remember, taking place in the same time as The Walking Dead, following the significant time jump between Rick going missing and Magna’s group arriving (five years, I think?), so that’s no affected by however TWD wraps itself up.
There's a wiki for that with a Television Universe Timeline covering The Walking Dead, Fear the Walking Dead and The Walking Dead: World Beyond.
Thanks for the link to that timeline. I clearly misunderstood the timeline of the various shows and now that has been reconciled for me. Cheers! ?
And yes, it does feel like Pamela is Governor 2.0. Disappointing. Was her father the serving President during the Outbreak or before?
Spoiler:
So, is “the variant” in the Renn Faire Castle the same as the “runners” in France or something else new? Also, it amazes me that our heroes still manage to find a “new defensible location” in their region after several years of actively scavenging the area.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/18 13:31:18
2022/10/26 15:11:39
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Most recent episode for Walking Dead felt disappointing to me. Definitely feels like the show is echoing other previous plotlines. So much so I have to wonder if it is on purpose.
I also managed to finally see Dead in the Water (the Fear the Walking Dead backstory prequel episode about the USS Pennsylvania. It was disappointing even with going in with low expectations. I suppose it could have been worse. Still, I really would like to see the showrunners use at least as much professional military technical advice as the Last Ship had in its early seasons. And that is not an incredibly high bar to reach.
Spoiler:
Lance's death was cliche and anti-climatic. I was really expecting something a bit more… remarkable.
The Commonwealth military do not act at all like trained professional soldiers or police officers. Despite having a West Point trained officer in charge of training. An officer who happens to be the son of a general. And given they train without armor against walkers armed only with a knife in their basic, why do so many panic while in the field with full armor and firearms?
What is the relationship between the Commonwealth and the Civic Republic? I can not see how these two settlements are not aware of each other. And what is with the all white armor for the Commonwealth and all black armor for the Civic Republic?
Why does Pamela's guards wear US Army Dress Uniform Infantry MOS insignia (the blue cords over the shoulder) on their strange black uniforms? Black uniforms… hmm. Coincidence? Probably. But those
While Dead in the Water was disappointing, it left open the door for a better attempt to explain what happened to the rest of the various fleets at sea as well as soldiers in nuclear lunch bunkers. Now, I was not a sailor so I do not know much about he Navy or life aboard a ship/submarine. However, there were things in The Last Ship which “rang true” to me because they mirrored some things I remember from my time in the US Army. And while I was never in a missile silo, I would think from what I have seen as an infantryman that there would be comms, weapons, food and water in abundance in each silo.
It really made no sense to me that the USS Pennsylvania had no comms and yet their was still mobile phone service on shore. Who would give an order to nuke Chicago? Why? It makes no sense to me at all. And think about the time it would take for them to be moved to their location from where they were originally on a NATO station patrol. Are officers on submarines routinely armed with sidearms? If so, some or all of them? Why was more effort not made to secure the armsroom they must surely have. I get that Zombies are terrifying but surely folks specifically selected for mental stability under extreme stress and difficult conditions as well as trained for conflict would react a bit better than what we saw. And aren't sailors taught to repel boarders. Plenty of chokepoints on a sub to channel walkers and kill them one at a time. The more I think about Dead in the Water the more plotholes pop up. Ugh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/26 15:12:32
2022/11/02 07:49:26
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
The ending of it suggests this was a necessary bridging episode, to get us from shenanigans in the Commonwealth, to, well, shenanigans where we wound up. Thinking about the preceding episodes, I don’t think what happened here could really have been interspersed among the other ongoing plots. But whether that’s damning with faint praise I’m not sure. Certainly it’s been a long time since we had such an episode.
There is still stuff to enjoy, from the washed out palette to channel doom and gloom in certain scenes, to some (perhaps not entirely necessary) character moments.
I think it’s best to hold off judgement until we see how the rest of those section fully shakes out.
I saw your post before I caught the episode… but I have seen it now and I agree with your observations. It felt… odd… to have the location reveal be what it is.
Spoiler:
I find it surprising that Mercer either knew about this and was ok with it or that he could be “The General” and not know about it. I get that not all of the Commonwealth military is loyal to him but as a trained officer who is the son of a General he should understand leadership requirements of his position. If he was just a good combatant, say a famous athlete before the Fall, who is now the figurehead military commander and recruitment posterboy for the Commonwealth, then I could understand how is acting/being treated. Especially with folks like the now dead CIA operative at the disposal of Lance and Pamela. All this with Mercer may seem trivial to some but it really damages my suspension of disbelief.
2022/11/07 13:50:06
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Excellent tension building and some good pay offs.
We see our group heal old wounds, seeing elements in a different light. And importantly, we see them putting their previous lessons to good use. We even get some redemption for certain elements of the antagonists, as well as new insight that perhaps Lance wasn’t as rogue as Pamela claimed.
And I’m happy to report that last week’s episode is slotting in better to the wider story now. I still think it was a wee bit iffy, but for someone with no knowledge of film making other than enjoying what I enjoy, it’s for wiser minds to suggest whether it was a necessary slowing of the pace.
With two episodes left, I really think it’s going to go out on a high.
Just finished the episode and I quite agree.
Spoiler:
I am a sucker for a mercy over wrath plotline. I also found myself thinking, all the armor, weapons and training in the world is useless if you do not have the courage to put them to use… and even if you can find the courage to have a physical fight you still need the courage to do what is morally right. I really thought Mercer was going to let me down.
2022/11/07 15:04:36
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Its playing with the Cult of Personality, which has been a running theme throughout Walking Dead.
We get a nice bit of exposition from the Commonwealth Dude Daryl Stabs about leadership. But we see the Commonwealth Troops perhaps aren’t universally loyal or without morals. And nice bit of inversion with Negan coming to close to learning the pain he inflicted on others.
Maybe we’re building toward a fairly quiet revolution?
Again I agree.
Spoiler:
I am not sure it will be a quiet revolution though. I think the big question is, will the Commonwealth survive a revolution.
The Commonwealth soldiers would make better characters if we got to know some a bit better, they had NCOs/junior officers, with Daryl having become an NCO and then later they recognized Daryl as a former Commonwealth NCO to admire/respect. That may not have been in the comic but that is off screen personal head canon for me.
I am surprised at Eugene‘s character arc. Bit of a roller coaster but considering how much I used to hate the character I have to respect the show fo convincing me to like him. Same with Negan.
2022/11/08 06:36:07
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Pamela and Lance started out ambiguous and that's when the storyline was good. Then they descended into cartoonish supervillainy due to this show being anti-nuance. The Commonwealth has secret slave labor now and a non-independent judiciary, secret police death squads. It's just a grab bag of half baked totalitarian ideas. Maybe if it was well done I could be down for it but I swear it's like they are just writing the episode right before it airs. What do we do this week? I don't know - Pamela evil now? Keeps her undead son around like The Governor? Sure, whatever.
I am inclined to agree. The show lacks nuance and I do not feel like there is a detailed long term plan for the writers.
Spoiler:
The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying.
The zombie (or Whisperer?) picking up the dropped knife for example in that herd… what is going to become of that? And why did the Commonwealth soldiers spend so much time looking at that herd with spotlights? Do they know to look for people hiding in herds? Why are they not thinning out that herd? One thing about the show I never got, why ever leave a zombie alone if you can put it down? The Commonwealth has never stated an ammunition supply problem. Why do our heroes leave alone zombies today that could kill people tomorrow? Especially when they become more dangerous when they gather in greater numbers. Annoying.
Of course killing even lone zombies gets harder when the writers add more intelligent zombies out of nowhere. Annoying.
I also find the flip flop from “ we can fool the zombies by covering ourselves in blood” to “ack, covering ourselves in blood can kill us” then back to “we can cover ourselves in blood and herd the zombies”…. annoying.
As for Pamela, I fail to see how she is unaware of what her son did, what Lance did and the current slave operations. What I took from the last couple of episodes with Lance is that he looked to Pamela as a surrogate mother figure. He was on par with her son in his malice and that malice was born from the actions of Pamela. And it is implied that she learned that from her father, a former US President. Pamela lied about the lottery, she handed out money to the wealthy, and she expected Mercer to protect her over the general public well being. She is unstable from her grief but I do not think that excuses the rest of her behavior.
2022/11/08 19:15:14
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying
Spoiler:
We had walkers acting differently way back in the very first episode of The Walking Dead (trying to open doors, picking up their teddy bear, etc.). Admittedly, in real life it was because they had not worked out all of the details on how the walkers worked, but we don't have an in-universe explanation of their actions. Add that and the climbers to the scene at end of the 'Variants' episode and we're seeing the set up for the new Daryl Dixon series.
Reconciling those two communities is something I have been having trouble with. So the theory mentioned there helps.
It still feels like Walking Dead constantly wants to jump yet another shark. This issue of variant Zombies is part of the reason I posted up polls on various forums about slow vs fast zombies. So we now have smart, fast, strong… as well as radioactive and armored zombies. Now that I think on it more, it does remind me of Ash adding variants to his game Last Days…..
2022/11/14 12:53:31
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!
Aye, heck of a cliff hanger.
Spoiler:
How is Mercer so incompetent? How has he not built up a network of loyal, reliable officers and NCOs that might notice a bunch of things going on all over the Commonwealth? I am trying to come up with own head canon that Pamela has a bunch of covert CIA and Secret Service assets in the civilian population from when her father was President but it is quite the stretch. How are so many rank & file Commonwealth soldiers willing to lead walkers into the Commonwealth urban center? It would have played better to have different, obvious factions in the Commonwealth Security forces. From Mercer with the Army, to another officer with internal police, and yet another with Pamela’s personal guards.
I will be gutted if Jerry and/or Judith buys it.
Some of the tension is absent due to announced spin-off info.
Climbing zombies…. Super rare… now everywhere. Sigh.
Of course a gate control only has a single guard. Of course.
Sometimes it seems the Commonwealth soldiers are zombies before they get killed.
Still, all that said… fair play to the showrunners to have me on the edge of my seat during this episode. Nice redemption speech from Negan.
2022/11/14 15:40:14
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
This is the first time for a while we’ve seen Zombies in an urban setting.
Given how deft the survivors have become at dealing with Hordes etc, it does kind of make sense the relatively smarter zombies have likewise survived. So it’s not that they’re suddenly more numerous overall, just a higher percentage of whatever stinkyrotbois remain.
Looking forward to rewatching this one.
In terms of finale? Lydia I reckon is toast. We’ve one pre-existent example of someone surviving following limb amputation. Hershel barely made it, and even then thanks to relatively clean environs, sustained medical care and a safe place to be. And whilst Aaron wasn’t bitten (he was squished by a log), he likewise had ready access to some form of sustained medical care.
With Lydia, there’s the question of whether they got it off quick enough, and the strong chance of common or garden infection, not to mention bleeding out.
I don’t disagree with the other things though.
Still disappointed the finale isn’t a super episode, rather than being split. But that’s just me being fussy.
Fair points mate.
Spoiler:
I agree on Lydia… but I suspect we will still get some drama surrounding her fella. The question is, will she live long enough to find out what happens to him and Jerry, and will they make it. I thought they would be ok but Jerry saying, “See you on the other side” really gave me a bad feeling regarding his life expectancy. Which threw me for a loop because I thought he might end up running the Kingdom 2.0. :(
2022/11/18 11:00:20
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
She’s definitely a villain. But one who’s position has insulated from the reality of her decisions.
I’m still not convinced she’s as malevolent as say, The Governor who was seemingly a wrong’un from the get go. Pamela I think is the slow corruption of power. A not particularly clever or skilled politician, who allowed those around her to talk her into allowing ever more horrific acts. Her reaction to everything is very…spoiled. She doesn’t give a fig for The Commonwealth, just the power and comforts it’s brought her.
It is interesting that you and I can get such different impressions from the same character.
2022/11/18 11:20:07
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
And yet I took her behavior towards Lance and his history with her family, and her having a father who was President of the United States, as it coming across as a long established (malicious) leadership style established by the family. In fact I saw it as a dig at contemporary American politics and its protection of the rich.
The CIA assassin Lance dug up had to be forced out of retirement. Pamela is quick enough to get on the phone and call outposts rather than rely on someone to manage things for her. She has her own troops that Mercer is unaware of even after Lance and his cronies are out of the picture… and Pamela was behind getting rid of Lance‘s assets as we see in his cell.
I took her scenes with the hunting and her willingness to pick up a rifle against our heroes as being someone who is willing to get her hands dirty, in fact she scorned her son for being weak and expecting others to do his work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 11:21:28
2022/11/18 12:05:58
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
I am still not sure how to interpret her apparent shock both of having blood on her face and shooting Judith. It seemed at odds with how she had been portrayed before that. Her hunting scenes reminded me of the Tywin Lannister hunting butchery scene… so maybe I have given her too much credit. Although she also did not flinch at shooting walkers. This is what I mean about confusing messages from the writers.
To be clear, I have no problem with communities needing to be strict on who they let in. The scene with Corporal Hicks covered that quite well actually. Good plot writing on not knowing exactly who the “good guys” and “bad guys” were on that.
And I get that in Walking Dead who you used to be, what you used to do, matters a whole lot less than what you do right now. Both Negan and Shane reflect that in their character arcs.
2022/11/18 12:44:28
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
It somehow feels surreal for it to be “over” but then of course it was not. For a mediocre at times post-apoc escapist Fantasy I was surprised to find how emotionally attached I had become to several characters during that extended “memories” ending.
Brilliantly done with Maggie and Negan by the way.
Oh, by the way….I am really, really irritated with armor that does nothing in tv shows/movies.
Edited to reflect new info, thanks Doc. ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/22 17:55:00
2022/11/24 08:22:02
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
So in addition to the new spin-offs we still have Fear the Walking Dead for at least one more season. Not sure how I feel abou Fear these days. Morgan and Dwight are still pretty cool but everything else is becoming something of a shark jumping stretch.
2022/11/24 10:41:58
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
First season where we follow the family I was wanting them to hurry up and get ded. Just loathsome characters I couldn’t root for.
The bit with Virginia was….OK, I suppose? But then we get Lionel Luther and his madcap nuke scheme of zero sense.
I really disliked the first couple of seasons but stuck with it and it got better… until it got worse… then got better… then got worse again. The plots were generally disappointing. A few clever concepts that were not executed well due to often mediocre at best writing. But some cool characters… cool characters often wasted with poor writing though.
Spoiler:
So no CRM vs Commonwealth troops conflict yet? Will it ever come given the feeling of the season finale and th8ngs moving elsewhere in the spin-offs?
2023/01/11 05:50:46
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Much as I like some of the characters in Fear, it is definitely time to end it and move on. In a show filled with bad decisions, the nukes definitely were a step way too far. Bringing Madison back was painful… like season 1. The question now is, how exactly do they end it? Misery for everyone?
2023/01/11 13:38:39
Subject: Re:Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Much as I like some of the characters in Fear, it is definitely time to end it and move on. In a show filled with bad decisions, the nukes definitely were a step way too far. Bringing Madison back was painful… like season 1. The question now is, how exactly do they end it? Misery for everyone?
Morgan wakes up in the shower with any luck.
Haha! Yeah… I wish.
2023/01/11 19:45:09
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
