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I like how

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like how

Spoiler:

Its playing with the Cult of Personality, which has been a running theme throughout Walking Dead.

We get a nice bit of exposition from the Commonwealth Dude Daryl Stabs about leadership. But we see the Commonwealth Troops perhaps aren’t universally loyal or without morals. And nice bit of inversion with Negan coming to close to learning the pain he inflicted on others.

Maybe we’re building toward a fairly quiet revolution?

Again I agree.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Most recent episode for Walking Dead felt disappointing to me. Definitely feels like the show is echoing other previous plotlines. So much so I have to wonder if it is on purpose.

I also managed to finally see Dead in the Water (the Fear the Walking Dead backstory prequel episode about the USS Pennsylvania. It was disappointing even with going in with low expectations. I suppose it could have been worse. Still, I really would like to see the showrunners use at least as much professional military technical advice as the Last Ship had in its early seasons. And that is not an incredibly high bar to reach.

Spoiler:

Lance's death was cliche and anti-climatic. I was really expecting something a bit more… remarkable.

The Commonwealth military do not act at all like trained professional soldiers or police officers. Despite having a West Point trained officer in charge of training. An officer who happens to be the son of a general. And given they train without armor against walkers armed only with a knife in their basic, why do so many panic while in the field with full armor and firearms?

What is the relationship between the Commonwealth and the Civic Republic? I can not see how these two settlements are not aware of each other. And what is with the all white armor for the Commonwealth and all black armor for the Civic Republic?

Why does Pamela's guards wear US Army Dress Uniform Infantry MOS insignia (the blue cords over the shoulder) on their strange black uniforms? Black uniforms… hmm. Coincidence? Probably. But those

While Dead in the Water was disappointing, it left open the door for a better attempt to explain what happened to the rest of the various fleets at sea as well as soldiers in nuclear lunch bunkers. Now, I was not a sailor so I do not know much about he Navy or life aboard a ship/submarine. However, there were things in The Last Ship which “rang true” to me because they mirrored some things I remember from my time in the US Army. And while I was never in a missile silo, I would think from what I have seen as an infantryman that there would be comms, weapons, food and water in abundance in each silo.

It really made no sense to me that the USS Pennsylvania had no comms and yet their was still mobile phone service on shore. Who would give an order to nuke Chicago? Why? It makes no sense to me at all. And think about the time it would take for them to be moved to their location from where they were originally on a NATO station patrol. Are officers on submarines routinely armed with sidearms? If so, some or all of them? Why was more effort not made to secure the armsroom they must surely have. I get that Zombies are terrifying but surely folks specifically selected for mental stability under extreme stress and difficult conditions as well as trained for conflict would react a bit better than what we saw. And aren't sailors taught to repel boarders. Plenty of chokepoints on a sub to channel walkers and kill them one at a time. The more I think about Dead in the Water the more plotholes pop up. Ugh.

In the comic the joke about Negan when he first appeared is that he was Governor II: Govern Harder. However, in the comic he does end up distinguishing himself from The Governor and Pamela is totally different of course.
In the TV show they decided to pretty much make all of them the same except Negan is a good guy now. Just keep doing the same storyline again, it's fine.

Speaking of which, they have now established that The Commonwealth and The Civic Republic are the same thing just one wears white and one wears black. I don't think there's a master plan for all of this, I just think they're out of ideas. I suppose if they can come up with a storyline connection we'll see it in the new Rick Grimes show. He has some sort of connection to The Civic Republic.

I don’t agree.

The Governor at least pretended to Be A Nice Guy to the folk in his rinkydink outfit. But they largely remained scavengers, and sooner or later were going to come a cropper as supplies became scarcer.

Negan never pretended. Brutality was the order of the day, but could be avoided by Loyalty. He was even surprisingly forgiven. Yes punishments could be harsh (and not always survived) but take your licks, learn your lessons and little stopped you getting back in his good books and a position of responsibility.

Pamela however? My jury is still out on how evil she actually is. Yes the mask does seem to have slipped some, but she’s also dealing with grief. It’s not nice losing a close family member, and whilst I’m not and hope never to be a parent myself, I’d imagine losing a child would be far more upsetting than when I lost my Mum. And that grief is heavily influencing her current actions. Is she vengeful and kind of petty toward Eugene? Yes. But I’d still struggle to say she’s actively evil. Perhaps she just turned a blind eye too often with Lance. Perhaps she knew all along and provided tacit or even direct approval.

Remember. The Commonwealth is said to be 50,000 strong. The access tests do make sense. You’re for all intents and purposes humanities best hope for riding out the apocalypse. Because whilst World Beyond established the dead are snowing delayed decay, they are still decaying. You don’t need to go crusading to take care of them - you just need to keep your walls strong and your people fed for a longer than expected time, doing what you can to keep the number of walkers in the vicinity manageable.

She’s…just a blue blood politician. Not necessarily a good person, just aloof, detached from what passes for Real Life, and potentially uncaring. Being a Karen isn’t a positive trait, but it doesn’t make one evil as such. She may even be a bit thick overall, and reliant on more genuinely malevolent advisors - the corrupt vizier to a fairly useless King, Queen, Emperor etc being a well established trope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the 50,000 Commonwealthians? That’s sufficient numbers for Pamela not to know people are going missing. And sufficient numbers you need to be strict about who you allow to join.

The world has gone to poo. Anyone coming in now absolutely is a killer. They’ve had to be to survive. That changes people. That creates a motive to screen for threats. Because whilst near everyone will be a killer, that doesn’t make them a murderer, or without control. You offer a pretty decent prize - normality. Life as closer to How It Was Before than anyone else has managed.

Is she corrupt? Yeah. I think she is. Is she inclined to do Bad Things to preserve her position? Sure. But is she an outright bad’ I and Nutter? I’m not convinced. The Commonwealth would be a better place without her in charge I think. But she’s not an outright threat by her nature.

In fact it’s that very ambiguity which sets Pamela apart. The Governor was mad for sure.His actions made little to no sense in the long term. He was paranoid about being supplanted, and tried it hide it to appear normal.. Negan was brutal, but honestly so. He never hid his kills. He never tried to downplay them. But Pamela is far more ambiguous, and whilst by no means squeaky clean, exactly how one sees her is a matter of perspective.

Pamela and Lance started out ambiguous and that's when the storyline was good. Then they descended into cartoonish supervillainy due to this show being anti-nuance. The Commonwealth has secret slave labor now and a non-independent judiciary, secret police death squads. It's just a grab bag of half baked totalitarian ideas. Maybe if it was well done I could be down for it but I swear it's like they are just writing the episode right before it airs. What do we do this week? I don't know - Pamela evil now? Keeps her undead son around like The Governor? Sure, whatever.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Pamela and Lance started out ambiguous and that's when the storyline was good. Then they descended into cartoonish supervillainy due to this show being anti-nuance. The Commonwealth has secret slave labor now and a non-independent judiciary, secret police death squads. It's just a grab bag of half baked totalitarian ideas. Maybe if it was well done I could be down for it but I swear it's like they are just writing the episode right before it airs. What do we do this week? I don't know - Pamela evil now? Keeps her undead son around like The Governor? Sure, whatever.

I am inclined to agree. The show lacks nuance and I do not feel like there is a detailed long term plan for the writers.

I’m still not convinced Pamela is neck deep in it though. Knee deep almost certainly. Ankle deep definitely.

But being a weak leader who gave too much freedom to Evil Vizier is not in itself a crime. A sign of incompetence, absolutely. But not evil.

Let’s also pop on The Specs Of Possibly Wilful Ignorance. The outposts we know were Lance’s pet project, and Pamela was genuinely upset with him when he took the piss with it.

The railway clearance project? They’re far away from The Commonwealth, yeah? I don’t think it’s unreasonable Pamela wouldn’t know what’s going on. Lance handpicks the donkey caves running each project. He picks his own Yes Men, nasty in nature. This doesn’t mean Pamela is aware of what’s going on - or at least the extent.

Maybe she is, but the corruption spread and developed by such degrees well meaning stuff when wrong, and by the time she found out? It was too late. Yes that is enabling behaviour, and a reason to remove her from power. But does it make her evil? I’d say no - again just a weak leader.

Remember, her recent actions follow the loss of her only son. Grief does weird, weird things to you.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
.

Spoiler:

The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
.

Spoiler:

The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying

Spoiler:

We had walkers acting differently way back in the very first episode of The Walking Dead (trying to open doors, picking up their teddy bear, etc.). Admittedly, in real life it was because they had not worked out all of the details on how the walkers worked, but we don't have an in-universe explanation of their actions. Add that and the climbers to the scene at end of the 'Variants' episode and we're seeing the set up for the new Daryl Dixon series.

https://screenrant.com/walking-dead-zombie-variant-smart-explained/

Thanks Ghaz, that is an interesting article. I still find the issue annoying but that was interesting and is food for further thought.

And it led to another interesting article…

Nooo!

Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nooo!

Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!

Aye, heck of a cliff hanger.

On the Zombies…



Still disappointed the finale isn’t a super episode, rather than being split. But that’s just me being fussy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Zombies…

Spoiler:

This is the first time for a while we’ve seen Zombies in an urban setting.

Given how deft the survivors have become at dealing with Hordes etc, it does kind of make sense the relatively smarter zombies have likewise survived. So it’s not that they’re suddenly more numerous overall, just a higher percentage of whatever stinkyrotbois remain.

Looking forward to rewatching this one.

In terms of finale? Lydia I reckon is toast. We’ve one pre-existent example of someone surviving following limb amputation. Hershel barely made it, and even then thanks to relatively clean environs, sustained medical care and a safe place to be. And whilst Aaron wasn’t bitten (he was squished by a log), he likewise had ready access to some form of sustained medical care.

With Lydia, there’s the question of whether they got it off quick enough, and the strong chance of common or garden infection, not to mention bleeding out.

I don’t disagree with the other things though.

Still disappointed the finale isn’t a super episode, rather than being split. But that’s just me being fussy.

Fair points mate.

Well…

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nooo!

Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!

Aye, heck of a cliff hanger.

Spoiler:

How is Mercer so incompetent? How has he not built up a network of loyal, reliable officers and NCOs that might notice a bunch of things going on all over the Commonwealth? I am trying to come up with own head canon that Pamela has a bunch of covert CIA and Secret Service assets in the civilian population from when her father was President but it is quite the stretch. How are so many rank & file Commonwealth soldiers willing to lead walkers into the Commonwealth urban center? It would have played better to have different, obvious factions in the Commonwealth Security forces. From Mercer with the Army, to another officer with internal police, and yet another with Pamela’s personal guards.

I will be gutted if Jerry and/or Judith buys it.

Some of the tension is absent due to announced spin-off info.

Climbing zombies…. Super rare… now everywhere. Sigh.

Of course a gate control only has a single guard. Of course.

Sometimes it seems the Commonwealth soldiers are zombies before they get killed.

Still, all that said… fair play to the showrunners to have me on the edge of my seat during this episode. Nice redemption speech from Negan.

Yes, a more nuanced politicking storyline ala Game of Throne would have been better but either these writers don't have that capability or they think their audience is doesn't want anything different. Also, what is the point of all that armour the storm troopers are wearing if it can't even buy you a few seconds against 1 zombie?!

@Mad Doc. Are you still deciding if Pamela is really evil? If so, I also think that is a failure or the writers imparting something to you. I think it's pretty clear the authorial intent with Pamela is that she's a cartoonish supervillian. Like they had to hammer it home so bad that Pamela picks up a machine gun and is somehow the only person that can shoot Judith. Like that is just so uncharacteristic of her that it's laughably bad writing IMO.

Anyway, I going to go ahead and stick that my original theory that this 11 year old show is just going with a non-ending ending because they can't actually have a resolution here. Total destruction of the Evil Commonwealth because they have 4 new zombie shows coming out. Got to keep milking this cow.

That being said, even I will find it hard to resist a Rick and Michonne show.....

Rumor mill has it that Lydia will be carried over to the Daryl Dixon spinoff as she was seen filming with h in Paris, France

On Pamela?

She’s definitely a villain. But one who’s position has insulated from the reality of her decisions.

I’m still not convinced she’s as malevolent as say, The Governor who was seemingly a wrong’un from the get go. Pamela I think is the slow corruption of power. A not particularly clever or skilled politician, who allowed those around her to talk her into allowing ever more horrific acts. Her reaction to everything is very…spoiled. She doesn’t give a fig for The Commonwealth, just the power and comforts it’s brought her.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Pamela?

She’s definitely a villain. But one who’s position has insulated from the reality of her decisions.

I’m still not convinced she’s as malevolent as say, The Governor who was seemingly a wrong’un from the get go. Pamela I think is the slow corruption of power. A not particularly clever or skilled politician, who allowed those around her to talk her into allowing ever more horrific acts. Her reaction to everything is very…spoiled. She doesn’t give a fig for The Commonwealth, just the power and comforts it’s brought her.

It is interesting that you and I can get such different impressions from the same character.

I just think she’s been one of Slow Corruption. Turning a blind eye time after time until she’s hips deep in blood.

That in itself is evil of course. But I still think there’s a chance she’s never really taken stock of just what horrors she has sanctioned, because she herself never got her hands dirty. All done through Cat’s Paws and Black Ops type stuff,

And what we know of the apocalypse and the horrors Rick & Co faced? Perhaps there was a time it was justified. For instance, you need to keep the like of The Wolves (remember them?) out of the Commonwealth, for the good of everyone else. Or the cannibals of Terminus. They seemed OK at first, didn’t they? A bit too good to be true, sure. But OK overall.

You can see how that necessity can be corrupted into simply lumping more and more people into Undesirable for ever more spurious reasons.

And yet I took her behavior towards Lance and his history with her family, and her having a father who was President of the United States, as it coming across as a long established (malicious) leadership style established by the family. In fact I saw it as a dig at contemporary American politics and its protection of the rich.

The CIA assassin Lance dug up had to be forced out of retirement. Pamela is quick enough to get on the phone and call outposts rather than rely on someone to manage things for her. She has her own troops that Mercer is unaware of even after Lance and his cronies are out of the picture… and Pamela was behind getting rid of Lance‘s assets as we see in his cell.

I took her scenes with the hunting and her willingness to pick up a rifle against our heroes as being someone who is willing to get her hands dirty, in fact she scorned her son for being weak and expecting others to do his work.

True, true. She’s definitely a fairly complex character.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
True, true. She’s definitely a fairly complex character.

Perhaps more complex than she needs to be.

Hunting animals isn’t the same as shooting a hooman, especially a child hooman.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hunting animals isn’t the same as shooting a hooman, especially a child hooman.

No, it isn‘t. But it is a start. And is often used as a way to convey a character is not squeamish.

And I understand shooting someone yourself is not the same as ordering the deaths of hundreds to thousands of others.

And finale done.

Mild grump?

Again I agree with you Mad Doc Grotsnik.



Edited to reflect new info, thanks Doc. 👍

Nope, that’s it done. Barring the spin-offs.

So in addition to the new spin-offs we still have Fear the Walking Dead for at least one more season. Not sure how I feel abou Fear these days. Morgan and Dwight are still pretty cool but everything else is becoming something of a shark jumping stretch.

Yeah. I’ve never really got into Fear the Walking Dead.

First season where we follow the family I was wanting them to hurry up and get ded. Just loathsome characters I couldn’t root for.

The bit with Virginia was….OK, I suppose? But then we get Lionel Luther and his madcap nuke scheme of zero sense.