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Well, lets try again, since my original post was locked due to insults between some posters... Here is the original post, for those who want to see in more detail:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/324180.page

So let me sum things up:
Me and my buddies play often games against each other with our armies (SM, necron, eldar and ork)... I play SM and find all games challenging and fun, but my ork buddy with his battlewagon spam list (follow link for army list) has huge problem when fighting mech eldars... Problem occured on following game : capture and control, spearhead... Ork won the first round and deployed one counter (see picture) as close as possible to enemy zone, and eldar has put his as far as possible... Then ork has deployed and then it started: eldar has put his units in reserves!
So, ork had 2 free move turns and he has positioned himself (see picture again) on the center of the table, little more than 12'' away form long table edge... He has made koptos turboboost move to cover each part of the map (this was a mistake, imo, now that I look at it)...

Eldar turn... As it was quite the time since the game, so I don't recall what exactly came from reserves (and it is not so important)... My question was: How should've ork play from that point? He went to take care of the left side of the board, as he didn't want to split his forces... He didn't have time to take care of both...

Here is the picture of table (more or less, it is similar terrain but sizes of hills & runis were different, but again, it isn't as important to answer my question):



As I don't remember (and again for general playing tips it's not as important) i have generated potential situation when eldar forces come from reserves (most of this happened, not sure if it was ws or prism that came on board first)....

So what would you do? Bear in mind it's more than 24'' from serpent and cca 30'' from walkers and prism... Scorpions have outflanked lootas and wave serpent carrying storm guardians w 2flamers + destructor (ws has TL bright lance) is closing by... Warp spyders have autarch with him (power weapon + fusion gun)... In reserves, there is da serpent and another prism...

In original game, autarch (w spyders) has managed to wreck one wagon on the round he came to the board and flew over the ruins... But ignore that, as it is (kinda) lucky shoot... I want to know, how to go from here?

Here is the dilemma:
1. Charge all 3 wagons on serpent or prism.... In that case, opponent will arrive at other side of the table... By the time orks take care of one side, there won't be time to get to the other side...
2. Split wagons to head towards both sides.... In that case, opponents reserves will head where needed to destroy split wagons....

I really can't find the way to counter this eldar tactic... Am I missing something? Should he position himself differently, and not on the middle? In locked thread (see link above) people said that you must deploy in center...

Another question is, where would you move koptas? They have died from war-walker fire (on one side) and other one I don't remember what took it down... Anyways, both dead on same turn eldars forces got on the table...

Chinchilla wrote:

Here is the dilemma:
1. Charge all 3 wagons on serpent or prism.... In that case, opponent will arrive at other side of the table... By the time orks take care of one side, there won't be time to get to the other side...
2. Split wagons to head towards both sides.... In that case, opponents reserves will head where needed to destroy split wagons....

The bull has all the power.

The matador can outmaneuver the bull.

The bull lacks agility & grace, so the bull can't outmaneuver the matador.

As long as the matador continue's to outmaneuver the bull the bull's power doesn't matter.

The only thing the bull can hope for is that the matador makes a mistake so the bull can gore the @#$%! out of him, but the bull has not control over the matador making a mistake. The bull can bring his A game, but it just doesn't matter if the matador also brings his A game.

If the other army can completely outmaneuver an army that is completely dependent on maneuvering into a good assault/deffrolla position the assault army will die from a long series potshots. The more the orks are outmaneuvered the more they have to make KFF 4+ cover saves, and the more they have to make saves the more they will fail saves. The issue isn't a question of math hammer, the issue is that the orks are the bull in a bullfight.

Good luck vs the new dark eldar

How about this: The Ork places his objective in one of his DZ corners. He Reserves his Grots. He keeps one Battlewagon back to completely block off his own objective from enemy access, placing it forming the third side of a triangle with the two table edges, leaving only a 1" gap against his own table edge, for his own Grots and/or Boyz from the Battlewagon to move through if necessary. The Eldar units cannot approach close enough to the objective to contest it until after the BW is dead, any if they get close enough to kill the BW, the Orks inside jump them, as do Deffcoptas if appropriate.

The other two BWs go full speed for the Eldar objective and just swamp it.

Lootas deploy centrally with best fields of fire, using their long range, to avoid getting hit by outflankers.

Assuming Orks are going first, Deffcoptas go front and center as usual to force the Eldar player to Reserve or have his tanks buzzsawed on turn 1. Once the Eldar player reserves, they head back to join the "home" BW, readying to charge any Outflankers who come to the party.

The problem is partly the points level. Bump it up to 2k, add in buggies and deff koptas and some more lootas and basically hope.

I find 1500 points to be very rock/paper/scissors and matchups like this are basically rock vs paper. You lose.

On the contrary I think this points level is fine for the Ork player. Do you know how difficult it is to get enough guns to pop BWs from anywhere but the rear in a Mech eldar list at 1500? Heck, that one BW I suggested leaving in the corner might not even die.

There are 2 TL BL, 2 prisms and lot of other firepower... 2 split bw will be wrecked easily, and with da and 3x flamer plus wound, those hordes of boyz won't last long...
Meanwhile, bw at home point will be okay, as he will not be targeted... But that means playing from start to end in draw... And that isn't acceptable...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, what would you people add at 1750?
List is at the link...

We were thinking another battlewagon with boyz or burnas....

All 3 Battlewagons should back up to each other to protect their rear amor. Camp underneath the Kff and use the lootas to take out at least one of the serpents. Use outflanking deffkoptas to help with the one or if its destroyed, go after the other one. Then send 2 battlewagons after the other objective and leave on the center objective.

I think the problem may be that your friend thinks he has to destroy everything right away. While that's fun, it isn't what objective missions are all about. Any kind of orks in close proximity of other orks is a very powerful force.

The orks should always go second in this matchup if given the chance. Hide one deff-kopta and contest an objective at the end of round 5 - use the eldar's own tactics against them.

Mannahnin wrote:On the contrary I think this points level is fine for the Ork player. Do you know how difficult it is to get enough guns to pop BWs from anywhere but the rear in a Mech eldar list at 1500? Heck, that one BW I suggested leaving in the corner might not even die.

I know that it can be difficult to get a substantial amount of firepower but it's still ridiculously easy to outmaneuver the BW wagons from a tactical standpoint and once the lootas are dead, all threats to the skimmers are removed and it's just down to dancing until the end with a contest and a claim for the win.

Yes killing battlewagons can be tough from the front, but when you're that fast are you really having difficulty getting rear armor shots? Even side armor will do when you've got str9 from prisms.

If you want to do a themed list like this it's going to lose against highly manuverable armies such as SM bikes, mech DE, and mech eldar.

@chinchilla
If you're wanting to stand a chance at higher and more competitive levels with your battlewagons I would really start supporting them with some decent shooting like rokkit buggies. Group the squad of koptas into 1 and drop a buzz saw, add 2 squads of rokkit buggies for 210 points and add another unit of gretchin and I think you'll do better at 1750 than you would at 1500 with your current list.

@vrakk
10 lootas isn't hard to scare off the board and once those are gone he's got 2 deff koptas, against an almost entirely mechanized force, yeah good luck with that and playing defensive is just asking to tie or lose.

Chinchilla wrote:There are 2 TL BL, 2 prisms and lot of other firepower... 2 split bw will be wrecked easily, and with da and 3x flamer plus wound, those hordes of boyz won't last long...
Meanwhile, bw at home point will be okay, as he will not be targeted... But that means playing from start to end in draw... And that isn't acceptable...

The two BW move to flank the Eldar objective, ideally each being an inch or so apart from it. The Eldar units cannot approach within an inch of the BW other than by assaulting (which opens them up to being assaulted in turn by the Orks), and thus cannot contest the objective until they start killing BWs. If the Eldar player puts his objective close to his own table edge, you can even turn your BWs rear armor to his table edge, thus denying him rear armor shots at all.

Honestly, two S9, two S8, and a bunch of S6 firepower really isn't amazing against AV12, which is what the sides of the BWs are. The Eldar won't start getting rear armor shots until T3 at the earliest, and it's going to take 2-3 rounds, usually, to blow them both up with skimmer-mounted guns. Any guns shooting at the Lootas are not popping battlewagons; and if the Lootas are shooting, they should at least be getting Shaken or Stunned results on skimmers. I play Eldar at 1500 and am well aware of how little firepower they really have when it comes to popping BWs with a KFF.

This scenario does have a tendency to draw a bit more, but IMO devoting 1 BW and the Grots to holding your own objective, while focusing the rest of your force around holding/contesting the enemy's, gives you a good chance of winning.

I know that it can be difficult to get a substantial amount of firepower but it's still ridiculously easy to outmaneuver the BW wagons from a tactical standpoint and once the lootas are dead, all threats to the skimmers are removed and it's just down to dancing until the end with a contest and a claim for the win.

Yes killing battlewagons can be tough from the front, but when you're that fast are you really having difficulty getting rear armor shots? Even side armor will do when you've got str9 from prisms.

Do you want to try running the math on S9 BS4 v AV12? 4/12 of all hits kill. So you're looking at an average of 3 hits to get a kill, which take ~ 4-5 shots to get. On average (at least if the Lootas don't do their job) the two aggressive BWs will be dead by the end of the game, but the contents will still be there, holding or contesting the objective. Meanwhile the Orks have safely held onto their own objective in the corner, and win the game.

Mannahnin wrote:

Chinchilla wrote:There are 2 TL BL, 2 prisms and lot of other firepower... 2 split bw will be wrecked easily, and with da and 3x flamer plus wound, those hordes of boyz won't last long...
Meanwhile, bw at home point will be okay, as he will not be targeted... But that means playing from start to end in draw... And that isn't acceptable...

The two BW move to flank the Eldar objective, ideally each being an inch or so apart from it. The Eldar units cannot approach within an inch of the BW other than by assaulting (which opens them up to being assaulted in turn by the Orks), and thus cannot contest the objective until they start killing BWs. If the Eldar player puts his objective close to his own table edge, you can even turn your BWs rear armor to his table edge, thus denying him rear armor shots at all.

Honestly, two S9, two S8, and a bunch of S6 firepower really isn't amazing against AV12, which is what the sides of the BWs are. The Eldar won't start getting rear armor shots until T3 at the earliest, and it's going to take 2-3 rounds, usually, to blow them both up with skimmer-mounted guns. Any guns shooting at the Lootas are not popping battlewagons; and if the Lootas are shooting, they should at least be getting Shaken or Stunned results on skimmers. I play Eldar at 1500 and am well aware of how little firepower they really have when it comes to popping BWs with a KFF.

This scenario does have a tendency to draw a bit more, but IMO devoting 1 BW and the Grots to holding your own objective, while focusing the rest of your force around holding/contesting the enemy's, gives you a good chance of winning.

I know that it can be difficult to get a substantial amount of firepower but it's still ridiculously easy to outmaneuver the BW wagons from a tactical standpoint and once the lootas are dead, all threats to the skimmers are removed and it's just down to dancing until the end with a contest and a claim for the win.

Yes killing battlewagons can be tough from the front, but when you're that fast are you really having difficulty getting rear armor shots? Even side armor will do when you've got str9 from prisms.

Do you want to try running the math on S9 BS4 v AV12? 4/12 of all hits kill. So you're looking at an average of 3 hits to get a kill, which take ~ 4-5 shots to get. On average (at least if the Lootas don't do their job) the two aggressive BWs will be dead by the end of the game, but the contents will still be there, holding or contesting the objective. Meanwhile the Orks have safely held onto their own objective in the corner, and win the game.

The math on str 7 vs AV 12 is a lot worse even with the "average" 20 shots a turn you maybe get 1 glance and 1 pen. You also seem to assume you have to kill the battlewagon, Immobilized is enough, stun is just fine to either stall him or remove it's cover save as well (unless he doesn't want to move his full distance toward the objective). Also that str 6 firepower really should go to killing the lootas which really won't take long and then the rest can go to dismantling the battlewagons. A meaningful pen roll on a battlewagon is 1,3,4,5,6 with a glance its 3,5,6. Open topped really bites when it comes time to actually roll on the chart and god save him if there's even a 5 man fire dragon squad to be dealt with.

Battlewagon armies can't bring the tools they need to deal with fast armies while still having the punch in CC orks generally need at 1500. At 1750 with more and better fire support I think the OP will have a much better shot while still having 3 deff rollas to punch non fast vehicles and move his units upfield.

Also I'm not sure how you're actually preventing the eldar player from contesting with gretchin and 1 BW on the home objective. Sure if you happened to go 2nd you'd get your mele swings but on 6s to hit and for everything but the nob 6s to glance is poor odds of actually killing the contestor.

I don't think it's unreasonable to get a roll or 2 on a wagon a turn while still being able to whittle away the rest of the ork army because it is so concentrated in those 3 wagons.

Not s9, but TL s10 on AV12 with +2 damage roll... Try that math... Anyways, as we often play that games, I know that more or less each round or two one wagon dies... It's the fact from our games... And still, getting rid of wagons in that time frame is not such a big deal.... Not to mention that for boyz, once they get out, there are also warwalkers with 24 s6 (usually guided) shots...

You think warbuggies will help? Was considering them, but never wanted to give up kopta... It does wonders for me... And I don't like having just one squad, but if I added one buggy squad, will it help?

As for math hammer, I am fully aware of it... 24 bs 3 s6 shots have 87,6% chance to glance... And with only -1 on damage roll, that's not that bad!... TL bl has 25% chance to penetrate, and remember that there is still +1 dmg roll... Combined prism has 59% chance of penetrating with +2 on damage roll... It is not as much firepower as it could be, but it is fast and efficient and will manage to blast away 3 wagons... No, better to say, it has proven to be more than able to blast them...

As for lootas, they have failed me again and again... Well, on average 10 shots, they have 70% chance to glance, and 43% chance to penetrate... That is nice, but if you add that you need weapon destroyed or better to do something against serpents (and don't let me start on holofield prism), you get to 31%... And that is not so bad, but it just seems I can't destroy anything with them

Biggest problem is imo that once the boyz become footy, they die quickly... With all the firepower eldars have, one squad usually dies in one turn... This is all from our gameplay experience... As I mentioned, we have played lots of SM, orks, eldar and necron games against each other... But I believe that I got that necron curse on me so it makes it harder (if not impossible) to win any games, and makes my kff useless... You know... Once you start playing necrons, all 4+ rolls are guaranteed to fail (you should see me when I lose 4 destroyers on turn 1, fail all wbb rols, port them with lith for more, and again fail all of them... Hello statistics )....