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Hi there.

I have been looking my Black Templars army over for an upcomming tournament and noticed that I only have one Chaplain model with a power fist, but wanted to field two. I do however have a Chaplain with bolt pistol. If I equipped the Chaplain with Crozius Arcanum, Bolt Pistol and Power fist, how would he look WYSIWYG? I mean... He can't have three hands. I know there aren't any hard rules for WYSIWYG, so what I really want is your call rather than a pg. reference. So, would you comment it if I fielded a Chaplain with Power Fist and Bolt Pistol, but the model was the Chaplain w/ Bolt Pistol model?

Upgraded equipment should always be modelled, especially for characters as it is in the rules.

Also, in case you havent spotted - you no longer get an extra attack with a powerfist and bolt pistol.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also, in case you havent spotted - you no longer get an extra attack with a powerfist and bolt pistol.

Yeah, I spotted that. It was merely a cheap way of adding a third hand weapon, thus possibly removing the need to model a power fist on.

But in cases where the ekstra wargear isn't just pistol that could easily be hung from the belt, what then? Should dual lightningclaws, power weapons, plasmacannons and what not just hang like loose gubbin's from the models back? But yeah... Figured it was streching it anyway... Guess I'll just have to Dremel off his arm and replace it...

Thanks though.

Cheers

EDIT: Spelling...

Something crucial like a powerfist SHOULD be modellled. They are such game changers for some armies that not modelling it can lead to nasty surprises for the opponent.

Dremel it off then magnetise, so you have options

Firstly, a chaplain cannot have a crozius, bolt pistol and powerfist.

He has a pistol or bolter and he must swap that for the fist.

Secondly, if you did have a model with three weapons - it's not good form to use that as an excuse to conceal the largest and most powerful of them. A bolt pistol isn't going to give anyone a nasty suprise - a power fist is.

Scott-S6 wrote:Firstly, a chaplain cannot have a crozius, bolt pistol and powerfist.

"A Chaplain is armed with a crozius arcanum[...]."

"A Chaplain can be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury."

Both taken from pg. 32 of the Black Templars codex. So yes, he can.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Firstly, a chaplain cannot have a crozius, bolt pistol and powerfist.

"A Chaplain is armed with a crozius arcanum[...]."

"A Chaplain can be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury."

Both taken from pg. 32 of the Black Templars codex. So yes, he can.

Nice way to quote fail there.

You forgot the part in the armoury where it says you can't have more than 2 1 handed weapons.

Gwar! wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Firstly, a chaplain cannot have a crozius, bolt pistol and powerfist.

"A Chaplain is armed with a crozius arcanum[...]."

"A Chaplain can be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury."

Both taken from pg. 32 of the Black Templars codex. So yes, he can.

Nice way to quote fail there.

You forgot the part in the armoury where it says you can't have more than 2 1 handed weapons.

"Models with access to the Amoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon." You start off with the Crozius, you select the PF and Bolt Pistol. What's the catch?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:"Models with access to the Amoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon." You start off with the Crozius, you select the PF and Bolt Pistol. What's the catch?

May select 2 weapons.

Just because you start with the Crozius doesn't mean it wasn't selected. It was selected for you.

Didn't notice that Gorlac was talking templars.

However, his argument is even weaker then as his codex specifically states "All weapons and wargear must be represented on the model".

Gwar! wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:"Models with access to the Amoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon." You start off with the Crozius, you select the PF and Bolt Pistol. What's the catch?

May select 2 weapons.

Just because you start with the Crozius doesn't mean it wasn't selected. It was selected for you.

Meh, fair enough, you win.

Just model the special weapons and clarify with your opponent who has what, just to be sure.

Gwar: How many hands is the crozius?

And if I lay out 6 different sized piles of money in front of you and tell you you may select two of them, would you only take 1 because you already have money in your pocket?

You are able to select up to two weapons from the armory; therefore you may take the 2 in addition to your original weapons. It was only in 3rd edition where you chose to replace whichever base weapon you had for your new armory selected weapon, and 4th edition(when this codex was written) where you lost all base weapons the moment you selected any weapons from the armory.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Gwar: How many hands is the crozius?

1, because it is a Power Weapon.

In any case, handedness doesn't come into it, since the armoury says you can only select 2 weapons (regardless of handedness), but only one can be 2 handed.

So you can have the Chrozius and one other weapon, since the Chrozius is a weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Gwar: How many hands is the crozius?

1, because it is a Power Weapon.

In any case, handedness doesn't come into it, since the armoury says you can only select 2 weapons (regardless of handedness), but only one can be 2 handed.

So you can have the Chrozius and one other weapon, since the Chrozius is a weapon.

Did you select the crozius from the Armory?

No you had the Crozius and were offered a Selection of up to 2 weapons from the armory.

Since this edition has no general rule that you lose any weapons you already had when making those selections you also get to keep what you had.

I realize I have to model a PF onto the model, but I fail to see the rest of your logic Gwar!

The Crozius isn't selected from the armory. It clearly states that a model can select two items from the armory. The crozius isn't available in the armory, isn't even listed as an armory item. Not from armory=doesn't factor into armory rules, and therefore I can choose two weapons from that list as well as 100 points of gubbinz.

Gorlack wrote:I realize I have to model a PF onto the model, but I fail to see the rest of your logic Gwar!

The Crozius isn't selected from the armory. It clearly states that a model can select two items from the armory. The crozius isn't available in the armory, isn't even listed as an armory item. Not from armory=doesn't factor into armory rules, and therefore I can choose two weapons from that list as well as 100 points of gubbinz.

It doesn't say that you get to choose two weapons from the Armoury, it says that you can choose two weapons. There's a difference.

Gorlack wrote:I realize I have to model a PF onto the model, but I fail to see the rest of your logic Gwar!

The Crozius isn't selected from the armory. It clearly states that a model can select two items from the armory. The crozius isn't available in the armory, isn't even listed as an armory item. Not from armory=doesn't factor into armory rules, and therefore I can choose two weapons from that list as well as 100 points of gubbinz.

Actually, that's not what it says. It says "models with access to the armoury may select up to two weapons." The phrasing here indicates that, if access = true, then they may select 2 weapons. What the argument comes down to is whether the wargear paid for with the unit is a "selection" or not. The strictest interpretation of RAW in this instance would be that, if they have a weapon, it is therefore a weapon selection (regardless of the source) and you may only select 1 other item.

However, most players won't harass you about this, since it is based entirely on the interpretation of the term "selection."

The nice about being able to keep the Crozius if you attack with it youll get the +1A for having two single handed weapons.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The nice about being able to keep the Crozius if you attack with it youll get the +1A for having two single handed weapons.

Except you won't, as you're choosing between 2 different special CCWs.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The nice about being able to keep the Crozius if you attack with it youll get the +1A for having two single handed weapons.

No, you won't, as you would have had to choose between the Crozius and the PF.

You would not get the extra attack if you are wielding two different special weapons.

if you wield the corzius and Bolt pistol you get the +1 attack

The rules are not clear since they do not deal with a model having more than 2 weapons they can use in CC.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The nice about being able to keep the Crozius if you attack with it youll get the +1A for having two single handed weapons.

AlmightyWalrus and Gwar are correct. Pg 42 of the rule book. Last paragraph on the right column "Two different Special Weapons"

PraetorDave wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The nice about being able to keep the Crozius if you attack with it youll get the +1A for having two single handed weapons.

AlmightyWalrus and Gwar are correct. Pg 42 of the rule book. Last paragraph on the right column "Two different Special Weapons"

note that deals with wielding "Two different Special Weapons"

if you are wielding a crozius and bolt pistol the rules are different.

Take note of that section, it only deals with models equipped with 2 weapons, It does not deal with what happens if a model has 3 or more.

DeathReaper wrote:if you are wielding a crozius and bolt pistol the rules are different.

Take note of that section, it only deals with models equipped with 2 weapons, It does not deal with what happens if a model has 3 or more.

-sigh- Ok then, by your logic a model with 3 CCW can never attack, since the rules don't deal with it.

And yet we are the TFG's. Funny how that works out, eh?

If you read all the pertinent rules you'll find that all that really matters is if you have another single handed weapon when using the Crozius to attack. We have been through this before. Nothing has changed.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you read all the pertinent rules you'll find that all that really matters is if you have another single handed weapon when using the Crozius to attack. We have been through this before. Nothing has changed.

You are right we have been through this before, and on the exact t same list; The argument was abandoned by the "well I'm not choosing to use 2 different special Close combat weapons" side, presumably because they have no leg to stand on.

The only way you ever have any choice in what Weapon(note the singular here) is when you have more than 1 special weapon equipped on the model. it does not matter if you have a dozen weapons or 2, if at least 2 of your weapons are Special Close combat weapons, and are different from each other, you must choose 1 weapon to fight with and as such will never gain the bonus attack.

Gwar! wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:if you are wielding a crozius and bolt pistol the rules are different.

Take note of that section, it only deals with models equipped with 2 weapons, It does not deal with what happens if a model has 3 or more.

-sigh- Ok then, by your logic a model with 3 CCW can never attack, since the rules don't deal with it.

And yet we are the TFG's. Funny how that works out, eh?

I never said anyone was TFG.

It seems a house rule is in order, since RAW does not cover having more than 2 CCW's

Kommissar Kel wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you read all the pertinent rules you'll find that all that really matters is if you have another single handed weapon when using the Crozius to attack. We have been through this before. Nothing has changed.

You are right we have been through this before, and on the exact t same list; The argument was abandoned by the "well I'm not choosing to use 2 different special Close combat weapons" side, presumably because they have no leg to stand on.

The only way you ever have any choice in what Weapon(note the singular here) is when you have more than 1 special weapon equipped on the model. it does not matter if you have a dozen weapons or 2, if at least 2 of your weapons are Special Close combat weapons, and are different from each other, you must choose 1 weapon to fight with and as such will never gain the bonus attack.

You have to be using/wielding the weapons to gain any benefit from them. a model equipped with a bolter and a bolt pistol can shoot either, but the one he does not chose to shoot with is ignored for that round of shooting. I.E. you gain no additional benefit for having 2 different weapons.

It does matter what weapons you have equipped and are using, because you can only use 2 CCW's. "Models with more than 2 weapons gain no additional benefit" P. 37 under number of attacks. So the 2 you are using are what you use the rules for, and the extra weapons give no additional benefit. Since they give no benefit you do not use the rules for the extra weapons.

If you are using "two different special weapons" you use those rules.

If you are using "A normal and a special weapon" you use those rules.

if you have more than 2 weapons.

You never have a choice in what weapons you are using unless you go straight down to 2 different special weapons, When you are equipped with more than 1, 1-handed Close combat weapons you must use the rules under that section of page 42 to find out what weapons you are using. Being equipped with 2 different Special CCWs means you automatically use the rules for using 2 different Special CCWs; no matter how many other CCWs you are equipped with(Same Special, normal, or otherwise).

If you want to house-rule that you can select what apir you are using, that is fine, but it is a house rule and breaks the actual rules.

If you happen to have a 2-handed weapon and a pair of CCWS(Same special, different Special, or Special and Normal) the game breaks; there are no rules what so ever that detail any choice between 2-handed and paired 1-handed(or even a single 1-handed). And another house rule would be in order.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You never have a choice in what weapons you are using unless you go straight down to 2 different special weapons, When you are equipped with more than 1, 1-handed Close combat weapons you must use the rules under that section of page 42 to find out what weapons you are using. Being equipped with 2 different Special CCWs means you automatically use the rules for using 2 different Special CCWs; no matter how many other CCWs you are equipped with(Same Special, normal, or otherwise).

Just being equipped with 2 different Special CCWs does not automatically make you use those two weapons unless those are the only two weapons you are equipped with, since the rules only really cover being equipped with exactly two CCWs.

You have to be using the weapons to have their rules have any effect on the combat, and if you have more than 2 you need to select the 2 you will use then look up the rules for the 2 weapons you are using.

Kommissar Kel wrote:If you want to house-rule that you can select what pair you are using, that is fine, but it is a house rule and breaks the actual rules. If you happen to have a 2-handed weapon and a pair of CCWS(Same special, different Special, or Special and Normal) the game breaks; there are no rules what so ever that detail any choice between 2-handed and paired 1-handed(or even a single 1-handed). And another house rule would be in order.

It doesn't break any rules, since the RAW only covers having Exactly 2 CCW's