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I’m looking to move away from my mech guard and tzeentch daemon armies and trying something different, so I’m looking to make a small elite marine army. So far this has lead me to two choices all terminator Wolfwing or all jumpback Blood Angels.

STRENGTH - The Wolfwing list
275 - Logan Grimnar

232 – Logan’s Bodyguard
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, thunder-hammer and storm shields,
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, chain-fist and storm shields,
X2 Wolf Guard with Terminator armour with 2 Wolf Claws and melta-bombs.
35- Drop Pod

275- Wolf Guard Terminator Squad
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, power weapon and storm shield,
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, wolf claw and combi-melta,
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, wolf claw and combi-flamer,
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, thunder hammer and combi-plasma,
Wolf Guard with Terminator armour, chain-fist, combi-plasma and a cyclone missile launcher.
35- Drop Pod

275- Wolf Guard Terminator Squad
(Same as above)
35- Drop Pod

275- Wolf Guard Terminator Squad
(same as above except 1 combi-flamer instead of combi-plasma)
55- Drop Pod: Missile Launcher

Total Pts: 1497
Total No: 20 (4)
Kill Pts 9

The standard squad is equipped with weapons for every type of enemy, with the storm shields guy taking the AP2 hits. I only had enough points to have one drop pod missile launcher so I changed 1 of the combi weapons to a flamer to make the unit more anti-horde.

My only worry about this list is the numbers; I didn’t expect many models for an all terminator army but only 20 models with no FNP or extra toughness. I do like the idea of being able to spend a lot of time painting each model of the 20 terminators but can this list work on the board?

------------------------------------------------

SPEED - The Blood Angels Jump Back List
220 - Astorath The Grim

165 - 2 Sanguinary Priest: Both with Jump backs and 1 with Power Sword

240 - 10 Man Assault Squad: Meltagun, Flamer and Sgt with Power Fist & Hand Flamer.

240 - 10 Man Assault Squad: Meltagun, Flamer and Sgt with Power Fist & Hand Flamer.

240 - 10 Man Assault Squad: Meltagun, Flamer and Sgt with Power Fist & Hand Flamer.

240 - 10 Man Assault Squad: Meltagun, Flamer and Sgt with Power Fist & Hand Flamer.

155 - 10 Scout Snipers: Camo cloaks

Total Pts: 1500
Total No: 53
Kill Pts: 8

With the all models able to move 12 it’s very agile and able to take a beating thanks to the FNP saves the priests will provide. I like how the 4 Assault Squads can become 8 small Assault Squads to better claim objectives, harass the enemy and allow the army to absorb more firepower on the whole. I choose Astorath because he a nasty monster killer and gives the squads fearless + furious charge on a roll of 3 or less.

Sadly I couldn’t afford the 5 full squads I wanted so I had 155pts left to spend, I did consider a tactical squad for sitting in my deployment zone with a heavy weapon but I need a full squad to take one so I settled for some scout snipers though I‘m tempted to replace it with a 5 man assault squad.

So what are your thoughts on the each list and which do you think would be the better investment for a marine army?

I would have to say the termie list as though slower they are hardier and Logan can give a universal special rule which may provide diversity,

Speed is more important in 40k

Yeah, but they may be a bit fragile to power/ID weapons, as they ignore FNP, although i do agree wit the speed thing

Id say Blood angels just because of speed and the amount of bodies on the board plus descent of angels means you can reserve all but scouts first turn and make your opponent play on your terms...

blood angels, cuz ap 1&2 owns loganwing.

But what about my 2 major concerns for both lists.

Can that Wolfwing list work with such small numbers? Cause I might want to come back to it later.

As for the Blood Angels I just remembered that the scouts only have a BS 3 so I'm unsure about taking them. So with those remaining 155pts should I buy...

A) A 5 man assault squad with the same upgrades as the others.

B) A Jumpback Librarian with Blood Lance and Sanguine Sword, this guy will be devastating if deep stiked correctly, leaving me enough pts to give both Sanguinary Priests power swords and melta bombs. Thou this decreases my numbers.

C) Just keep the scouts there a cheap scoring unit with a 3+ cover save and can wound MCs on a 4+

D) You guys suggest something?

Option B and C are both good you should play around with them both.. Don't underestimate Scout's with sniper rifles besides you can always use them too camp a board objective might be a good idea to try and squeeze in a locator beacon too if you can just in case for late game Objective rush

As for wolfwing llist depends on who your facing really horde armies will be a bitch. Other specialist armies could go either depending on force your facing and/or mission objectives

I don't think either of these lists is particularly competitive for a few reasons. The Loganwing force is very difficult to build at 1,500 points, especially considering I see Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators in there, which is a HUGE no no for Space Wolves. Those models are 63 points each compared to the 40 points of vanilla Marines, and I cannot stress enough that no matter how cool the models are that premium on points is not worth it. There are VERY few circumstances where taking TH/SS Terminators is beneficial in a Space Wolves list and none of them function below 2,000 points. Taking a single Storm Shield per pack of Wolf Guard is OK, as is taking a single Chainfist, but other than that I would take no more than a couple of Combi-Meltas and a couple of Wolf Claws. Additionally Logan should never ride with any packs of Terminators. He should always ride with a pack of Long Fangs wielding Multi-Meltas, which is about the only decent first round firepower you can get in that kind of list.

For the Blood Angels, in a Jumper list EVERY model should be a Jumper, which means no scouts. Additionally models like Dante, Astorath and The Sanguinor are awesome LOOKING models, but their in game stats leave a lot to be diesired. Taking 1-2 Librarians with Jump Packs, Shield of Sanguinius and Fear, 3 full Assault Squads with a Power Fist and 2x Meltaguns, a unit of Honor Guard with 4x Meltas and possibly Vanguard Vets if you happen to have the points left over.

Granted the above comments are specifically geared toward making the list as competitive as possible, so if that's not what you are looking for then play what you like and disregard the comments. If you want a competitive list though I might look at fielding one of the following:

Space Wolves
Logan Grimnar - 275

Rune Priest (Terminator Armor, Chooser, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane) - 130

Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod) - 150

4 Wolf Guard - 222
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Chainfist, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield
-TDA, Power Weapon, Combi-Melta
-Drop Pod

5 Wolf Guard - 285
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Chainfist, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield
-TDA, Power Weapon, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Cyclone Missile Launcher
-Drop Pod

5 Wolf Guard - 285
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Chainfist, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield
-TDA, Power Weapon, Combi-Melta
-TDA, Cyclone Missile Launcher
-Drop Pod

5 Long Fangs (4x Multi-Meltas, Drop Pod) - 150

Total 1,500

Logan rides with the Long Fangs, the Rune priest rides with the 4 man pack of Terminators. The idea would be to drop the Rune Priest's pack, Logans Long Fangs, and one other pack of Terminators in on the first turn, then follow up with the Dreadnought and the third pack of Termiantors in subsequent turns. They rely more on their durability to weather the storm before they can get into combat and deal maximum damage.


Blood Angels

Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius) - 125
Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius) - 125
Honor Guard (Jump Packs, 4x Meltaguns) - 205
Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack) - 75
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
7 Vanguard Veterans (Sergeant Power Fist, 2x Power Weapons, Jump Packs) - 265 Points
Total 1,500

The entire force deep strikes via DoA, maximising the chances that you will get a large portion of the force in on the 2nd turn. The Vanguard Vets drop in and attempt a Heroic intervention on any dangerous ranged units in order to keep the rest of the list safe. The Sanguinary Priest joins one unit of Assault Marines and the Librarians each join the other two. The Honor Guard fill the same role that the Long Fangs do in the above list, dropping next to any vehicles and popping them with meltagun shots. Unless you get horribly unlucky just about everything should have FNP the moment it arrives and the Librarians should be in range to cast Fear of the Darkness on any units of infantry that might threaten them, and after that everything will have Furious Charge the round you assault.

Anyway those are just suggestions, but I hope you find them helpful!

Aldarionn wrote:Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius) - 125
Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius) - 125
Honor Guard (Jump Packs, 4x Meltaguns) - 205
Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack) - 75
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns) - 235
7 Vanguard Veterans (Sergeant Power Fist, 2x Power Weapons, Jump Packs) - 265 Points
Total 1,500

I like it, my only problem is I'd prefer to have another 1 or 2 Sanguinary Priests in there for the feel no pain bonus. Plus I'm thinking of theming the army around pre-heresy Raven Guard after listening to Raven's Flight this morning so I'm wondering on wheather or not to replace a Librarian with a captain or something similar, just for appearance purposes.

I'd hesitate to do that, as the Librarian's add a heckuva lot to the list. You can paint them up as Pre-heresy Raven Guard but any changes to the above list should be considered carefully as it's very focused and specialized right now.

I like the above list, as you can tell.

True the benefits they bring to the army are better than a captain so I'll keep them, thou I will give one the spear of blood instead of Fear Of Darkness for use against mech opponents.

But I still would like some more Sanguinary Priests as I feel I'll be crowding my army round the 1 for the FNP. The question is were do I find the points?

The list has one Sanguinary Priest and a Sanguinary Novitae, so you do have two FNP bubbles. Adding more would just be overly redundant in my opinion. As for the powers on the Librarians, I would not change those either. The list has plenty of Melta already, with each unit except the Vanguards having a pair of Meltaguns and the Honor Guard having 4. Your won't be lacking for anti-tank at all, and Blood Lance is really not all that useful. Fear of the Darkness on the other hand is widely considered to be one of the best psychic powers in the game at the moment and can deal some serious damage to non-fearless forces, especially since you are fast enough with all of your troops to follow any unit that fails a morale test off the board and deny it any chance to rally. It's particularly useful against Space Wolves who seem to have lower leadership across the board for some reason.

If you plan on taking that specific list, I'd keep it exactly as it is for the reasons Pvt. Jet listed. In its current form it's focused to do a job and do it well, and any changes could really mess with the overall balance of the list, but that's just my opinion of course.

I guess but he's with a very small and threating unit so I doubt he last long. Too bad I can't find 15pts to drop somewhere cause that would mean I'd only need to order one pre-heresy armoured squad from FW for my Vanguard. But the list looks very solid so I'll see how it all goes.

Also what does he mean by this...

Aldarionn wrote: and after that everything will have Furious Charge the round you assault.

I thought Blood Angels could only have furious charge if they rolled a 1 for their red thirst?

I voted for the Blood Angels list. But only because I'm not a big fan of the way you loaded out the loganwing.

I think space wolves can make a dead-killy army using logan. You don't need to field ALL terminators, even though it's cool as heck. Fielding logan with long fangs allows a unit to never fall back, and scoot and shoot up to five missile launchers.

My favorite unit in a logan army=
Logan+6 long fangs, x3 missile launchers, x2 multi-melta, power weapon on champ. (only 155pt+logan+transport)

They can move and shoot, fire at two squads, and eat up most anything in CC thanks to counter-attack, pw, ect.

As a few people have said, taking thunder hammer+stormshield in a wolves army is just way too point inefficient. The wolf termies are better suited towards being super-killy and valiantly dying against massive odds.

I think that since you're "looking to make a small elite marine army" The space wolves would do everything you need. Don't go too insane on the drop podding terminators though, the 35pt transport that no one else has to buy for terminators stacks up pretty quick for your guys.

~~~~~~~~~~~

If you want a super elite army for the B.A.
Just field dante, get two squads of sanguinary guard+death masks.
Take another beefed out troop choice of assault marines (for dante to join). Then get x3 sanguinary priests.

I see that you're trying to build a B.A. swarm list maximizing on the astorath 3+ blood rage effect. Which probably works really well also.

Just trying to give some input elite Sanguinary Guard troop choice must work somehow haha





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've seen death mask blood angel units really grr off elite squads and other units just by reducing their CC hit chance to zilch if they can't pass that test.

Proiteus wrote:
I thought Blood Angels could only have furious charge if they rolled a 1 for their red thirst?

Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

Your Sanguinary priest and Sanguinary Novitae grant Furious Charge as well as Feel No Pain

Aldarionn wrote:Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

Your Sanguinary priest and Sanguinary Novitae grant Furious Charge as well as Feel No Pain

WOW and I wanted to spend 220pts on Grim just to increase the chances of getting that rule with the red thirst.

Yep, and that is one of the many reasons that Blood Angels special characters are generally not worth the points investment.

Now the question is what to have in the addtional 250 for 1750pt games?

A Full Assault Squad or a 6 Man Assault Squad & Sanguinary priest to increase my FNP areas so that the army can split up into 3 forces if needed?

Any ideas for the extra 250?

Overall, I fidn Loganwing more fun to play and wiht better fluff than BA... so that's my vote, and with a little tweaking your list could work fine.

I've made a few tweaks to Aldarionn's blood angel list. Because it lacks anti-swarm and that I'll be forced to keep my squads close together to get the FNP benefit should one of the priests not arrive, plus given how threating the honor guard are I doubt their priest will last long.

125 Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius)
125 Librarian (Jump Pack, Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius)

205 - Honor Guard (Jump Packs, 4x Meltaguns)
150 - 2 Sanguinary Priests (Jump Pack)

230 - 10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, Meltagun Flamer)
230 - 10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, Meltagun Flamer)
230 - 10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, Meltagun Flamer)

205 - 5 Vanguard Veterans (Sergeant Power Fist, 2x Power Weapons, Jump Packs)

Total 1,500
(44 Models, 8 Kill Pts)

For Games Of 1,750
250 - Sanguinary Guard (2 Inferno Pistols, Banner)
-- or --
75 - Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack)
163 - 6 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltaguns)

These changes also save me a bit of cash cause I don't need to buy a 2nd set of FW heresy marines for the Sternguard and 3 meltaguns. Plus out of the two choices which do you think is the best option for 1750 games?

Also do Sanguinary Priests count as 1 kill pt each or do they both have to be killed?

I would go with the BA assault squad, but maybe that my biased perception of the choices. I think you would get more versatility in the BA army list. I also think that Astorath is a steep points hit for what your taking him for. I think you could find a better way to utilize your HQ slot, then again maybe im not seeing the big picture that your painting by adding him to the army. Either way, id take the BA

Aldarionn wrote: Additionally Logan should never ride with any packs of Terminators. He should always ride with a pack of Long Fangs wielding Multi-Meltas, which is about the only decent first round firepower you can get in that kind of list.

Loganwing is all about firepower. You cant make a CC loganwing army, or at least you cant if you want to win with it.