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Before I get into this, I want to put a disclaimer saying that i absolutely do not endorse MFA.

In a tournament game I was playing, several TO's were pacing the floor keeping an eye on games. No problem, handy to have them there.

During one game (unusual for a tournament game, in that it was 3000 points), I deep struck a terminator squad in a fairly dangerous position. Thinking nothing of it, I placed my marker model down. At this point, a TO interrupts, saying that he had been "waiting" for me to pull a stunt like that. And he said "you're deep striking terminators are on smaller bases, you're clearly using that to your advantage to do a safer DS".

After the initial shock of the interruption, I pointed out to the TO that I had purhcased these termies from back in third, when the models and bases were smaller. This brings me to his second gripe. He then pointed to another unit of terminators (this time a unit comprised of new models)

He then replied with "why don't you DS those one's insteaad then?" I then explained that the DSing termies were shooty, and had an assault cannon and a heavy flamer. The termies in the land raider were Assault terminators equipped with LC's (and assaulting from the LRC was approved in this tournament before anyone jumps on that bandwagon!!).

The TO was unimpressed with this agrument, stating that it was "very" convenient that it was the assault terminators who were on the bigger bases. During this whole time my opponent was in an equal amount of disbelief, and couldn't understand why this was going on. After consulting with some other TO's, I was then forced to DS the assault terminators in the dangerous location. They land perfectly - in the middle of a tyrannid horde. It may as well have been lunch in a tin can. I was counting on the arrival of those guns to thin them out a bit, but my entire gameplan went out the window because of the TO's need to be "fair".

Does anyone agree with this? Should I be replacing old terminators with new? As far as I'm concerned, i bought them during 3rd when the models were smaller and came on those bases, therego I should be allowed to use them shoudn't I?

Play with what they came with.

Pretty sure the rules state that you play with the bases that were supplied with the models. So if you bought them in 3rd, you should still be good. I personally do not see a problem with this.

Don't have a page number handy atm though as I am at work, not at home.

Wait, the TO made you swap what units were in reserve?

I would have flat out refused, called him a dick and demanded my money back and left.

You were following the rules just fine. It's TOs like that which make me really angry. Simply don't play there anymore is all I can say.

Making you swap the units was ridiculous.

Measure for a mishap as though they were on large bases would have at least made sense. (still not correct though - old models, old bases. Re-basing them would require permission)

Models use the bases they come with, older models came with smaller bases, older models use smaller bases. You were in the right, at least as far as the default rules go.

That said, the tournament is welcome to use whatever rules they organizers see fit. They could say that all players must wear funny red hats, or re-roll all successful shooting attacks. So it's hardly unreasonable for them to expect terminators on a standardized base size. However they should have made that (and any other rule changes) known before hand.

It's also pretty asinine that they'd think you were DSing an assault unit instead of having them in assault vehicle. Really, that is not "Convenient" that is common sense.

(Totally OT, but I really think models should require updated basing. The whole partial backwards compatibility thing is silly. Unless they're pinned down real good, transplanting bases is hardly brain surgery. However, that isn't what the rules call for, the rules call for the original bases.)

Yeah pretty much Gwar. He said that I shouldn't be so "unsportsmanlike" (direct quote).

Its not a place I usually frequent anyway, I just happened to have a friend who got me in last-minute. He coudln't believe it either.

The REALLY frustrating thing, was that uit been a neck and neck fight up until that point. It was a complete game-breaker, as the assault termies I had planned to run out the crusader didnt get to fight the tyrannid warrior squad I had my eye on. Instead they got butchered by a horde of gaunts. The powerfirst terminators were also completely innefective. THAT was the most frustrating thing... almost 1000 points of my army completely neutralised in one swoop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Chongra

I can see your point about the bases, but why should I have to fork out for more when I already bought the models which came supplied with them?

jp400 wrote:Play with what they came with.

Pretty sure the rules state that you play with the bases that were supplied with the models. So if you bought them in 3rd, you should still be good. I personally do not see a problem with this.

Don't have a page number handy atm though as I am at work, not at home.

I believe it's page 3? (I've seen that page referenced enough times it's kinda stuck in my head)

Sounds like a TO with a power trip, plain and simple. He needed to be right so you were wrong no matter what you said. Making you swap squads was crazy, and is one of the worst things I have ever heard of a TO doing.

zeshin wrote:

jp400 wrote:Play with what they came with.

Pretty sure the rules state that you play with the bases that were supplied with the models. So if you bought them in 3rd, you should still be good. I personally do not see a problem with this.

Don't have a page number handy atm though as I am at work, not at home.

I believe it's page 3? (I've seen that page referenced enough times it's kinda stuck in my head)

Think so, I know that it's within the first 10 or so.

If it was me, I would have pulled out the BRB and quoted that to his face. And if he still had a problem with it, demanded a full refund.

Here's what I would've said: "Ok, why don't we use the properly-based assault terminators for the purpose of the deep strike, and then once we've determined if the DS is legit, we put down the models that I rolled for and was planning to use."

Did your opponent speak up at any point?

@Chongra

I can see your point about the bases, but why should I have to fork out for more when I already bought the models which came supplied with them?

You don't by the rules and probably in the majority of the cases nobody will make up a rule that says you would. The only reason I would like to see that be the rule, is because I like consistency. Honestly it's probably not a rule I'd add to a tournament, or even try to enforce as a house rule in a casual setting. However, I don't see as an unreasonable house rule/tournament rule and think it would make more sense if it was the official rule. Again, consistency. But, in-depth discussion of "How I wish the rules were" isn't exactly in scope for this forum anyway. I just kind of mentioned it because I can at least see where the TO was coming from.

Still, making up a new rule on the spot in the middle of a game is a bit silly. Assuming it was the assault terminators that were DSing and the shooty ones were in the LRC is very silly. The whole thing was just plain dunce-cap worthy on their part.

No, no ,no.
This is something you discuss with the TO before or after the Tourney/Game.

TO's have the final say in rules issues. There's no way around it.
If you disapprove then do what GWAR! suggested, leave in protest and ask for your money back.

I'm not saying what the TO did was 'ok', but it's their tourney/house and avoiding this situation is best.

@Mekanob - No, and to be fair he was quite right to keep quiet. It's all about winning at a tournament I guess isnt it? And I wasn't fast enough on my feet to offer that alternative to the DS measurement.

@Chongara - I completely appreciate your opinion. As you say, whatever the decision, it should be consistent.

Going into a tournament, and not knowing who you are going to face, sure makes it tough to take advantage of older models with older bases.

Had you been paired off against IG with lots of plasma sponson love, You would be better off with the newer larger bases.

The odd part was that your opponent didn't bring up the issue, the TO took it on himself to interject. I'd be inclined to tell him to F off, we'd be happy with your "help" should my opponent or I have a question we can't resolve ourselves.

-Matt

In a situation like that I'd do two things before getting a refund and walking out.

First- Find out if the opponent has a problem with it. If not, tell the TO there's no rules debate here, so he can be on to a real problem. Mind you, if he gets upset with it I tell him (other than to go to hell ) as a judge it's his job to mediate a rules dispute. Not to stop a game because he thought you were taking advantage of the rules.

Second- Tell him to show you exactly where you modelled to advantage. You used the bases that came with those models, and unless he was going to buy you new terminators you are not required to switch when new models come out. If he says you are, have him show you where in the book is says that.

As has been said, that is ridiculous. What is ridiculous about it is his statement 'I have been waiting for you to do that.'

This means he knew your terminators were in reserve, and waited for you to DS them so he could set up a 'trap' and make a scene. If he had an issues with bases, he should have told you BEFORE the game started or immediately voiced his concerns if it occurred during the game.

Further, unless something is blatant, it is up to the other player to go to the judge to ask for a ruling not for the judge to jump onto something unprovoked.

In short, the TO was drunk with power, anger or some other nerd raging emotion. RAW you are in the right and even if he planned to make a ruling he did so in a manner that intentionally cost you the game.

You had it right.

TOssers like that DESERVE your walkout.

I know, but I don't think that would have been fair to my opponent either - its not his fault the TO was a jackass.

liam0404 wrote:I know, but I don't think that would have been fair to my opponent either - its not his fault the TO was a jackass.

Maybe, but your opponents silence on behavior they seemed to know was wrong means that the time for fairness is long past.

Take their silence as acquiescence.
It's not fair to your opponent, but neither was their behaviour to you.

Burn the bridge and get over it.
Do NOT enter a tourney where that TOSSPOT is TO.

Vote with your feets.

Wow, this is sad. I'm surprised your opponent didn't step in and declare that he was okay with it. He got a free win with that though so I guess he wasn't complaining.

liam0404 I totally and 100% agree the TO was being TFG.

I had this problem way back in 4th edition when the new Terminators first came out on the bigger bases. I had a squad of 5 small based Terminators from 3rd and 5 big Based Terminators from 4th. There was a gentlemen, who we all liked, but sometimes he could be annoying when it came to rules, and he would tell me that I need to put the 5 small based Terminators on larger bases. He never made me do it and during tournament we were in together he would constantly tell me that I needed to do it but he never made a fuss to the TO or anything. Basically long story short, he offered to give me big bases and I turned him down because I was starting a new Eldar army anyway but now I'm glad I didn't as in the 5th edition rules it says "Use the base they came with".

That TO was being unfair and what really made me upset to read was the fact that he waited until you did it to tell you it was wrong. I mean that almost sounds like the guy hated you and wanted you to lose. I would have done what Gwar! said. Warhammer 40K is just a game its not the end of the world. Unless its Ard'Boyz there usually isn't $5000 on the line so that TO should have lightened up a bit.

Unfortunatelty, there are no intelligence requirements for being a tournament judge, and this one obviously either had a total hard-on for the game being played his way or the highway, no matter what the rules actually say, or was actively colluding with your opponent to help him out. It seems that both are equally likely. Either he was such a n00b or moron that he couldn't grasp the fact that there were very good tactical reasons not to deep strike an assault unit into the middle of a cc army, or it was deliberate sabotage.

I asked the same question about two months ago, after having bought an old terminator chaplain. If the tournament rules state any mini has to be based with the base it came with or larger, why can't my old terminators use the little bases?

When I bought a box of the newer terminators... a year or two ago, I distinctly recall it coming with both the 25mm and the 40mm bases. Did I just get a freak box?

aka_mythos wrote:When I bought a box of the newer terminators... a year or two ago, I distinctly recall it coming with both the 25mm and the 40mm bases. Did I just get a freak box?

It comes with the 40mm bases for the Terminators, and a sprue of four 25mm bases (unless they've changed them over to one of the little baggies of loose bases by now, in which case it probably has 5 or 6) so you can put a base on the Teleport Homer, should you be so inclined.

wow.... i feel bad for you. If i was the opponent, i would have spoken up...

The TO acted very poorly imho
The thing that struck me, as someone else above, was that he was waiting for you to do that then swooped like a hawk.

Sounds to me that it is more about him showing off how clever he is, rather than ensuring a fair game.

If he perceived it was a potential issue, he could have approached you before you brought in those Termies and allowed you to use the Termies with the larger bases as a footprint for deep striking, so that when that had been resolved you could have continued as you were.

For crying out loud, had you been trying to gain an advantage, how many millimetres better off would you have been? I know it was a tourney and small distances can be important, but even so...

The rule the TO invented on the spot directly contradicts an unambiguous rule in the main rulebook, and worse his proposed resolution badly disrupted the game. "OK, your bases are the wrong size, use these other bases to find out what the position is" would be fine, or "OK, use this identical unit with the other size bases instead", but "OK, swap this unit which is designed to drop in with another unit that isn't in the middle of the game" is just moronic.

Gwar! wrote:Wait, the TO made you swap what units were in reserve?

I would have flat out refused, called him a dick and demanded my money back and left.

I agree, except that you left out the next step, either informing the store owner of what happened (who probably doesn't want TOs pissing people off) or that you won't be coming back (if the TO is the store owner). I really can't believe someone expecting people to pay to enter a tournament would want TOs wandering around to games in progress where both players are fine, making up new rules that directly contradict the real rulebook on the spot, and choosing the most disruptive way possible to handle the new rule ('switch what's in reserve' instead of 'use these bases to get the positioning, then swap the correct unit back').

Agreed with the above.

If you can name and shame the TO / Store (if TO is owner) that would help people avoid an arrogant dick of a TO in the future.