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Hello,

I'm making another branch off of my Space Marines for a Dark Angel Deathwing army. But I'm wondering, what does everyone think about DA? Fluff Wise, Competitiveness, Army Lists, anything really! I just want to see if I'm or if it is an army worth starting, they seem to be the rarest of the Space Marine Chapters with their own Codex. Furthermore, does anyone play DA and have any suggestions on the best list? Tha'd be great!

Tell me what you guys think.

Fluff wise; they are, in the loosest sense of the word, Space Illuminati. How could that possibly fail!
Game wise; they suffer from a weak codex, with things like old storm sheilds, LD 9 Librarians at the like. I play my DA using their codex, but tellingly I notice I lose a higher proportion of games with them than other armies. If you aren't set on a Deathwing (or all Termie) army, then my advice would be to use the regular SM codex, unless you like playing 40k on 'hard mode'.

Oh, and welcome to the secretive fold!

I have always thought their "Secret" was awesome.

I really do hope they update it just a bit, it doesn't need new models haha.

I run a C:SM, and C:BA list already, but I have about 20 Terminators I'm not using, so I figured, what the hell, I'll give it a try!

Do you suggest I skip the Assault terminators then? And just use all ranged one in the army, or (For 1k points) 1 TH/SH squad, then 2 ranged squads.

Thanks for the welcome!

Hmm...I ususally find that, unless you make a 'Swordwing' (pure assault Terminators), then it is best to focus on the ranged elements on your army. With Deathwing every shot counts and the fact that 99% of the time you're going to be hideously outnumbered means that you're assault terminators can't rely on back-up if things go iffy like they can in other marine armies. They have a place, but they are a very "you take lots or hardly any" unit, if you catch my jist.

NB: Fauntleroy has the tactical skill of a lobotomised wet sock so anything he says in regards to gaming should be taken with this image in mind:

No, no I agree with you from my reading. It says take mostly ranged, plus assault termies have to wait a turn to even be useful once they drop right?

That is correct. Which leads me to add that in most cases dropping Deathwing in a pure termies list (I.E without any of those bikes with their lovely teleport homers) is usually not worth it. Land raiders or in cover most of the time.

I was thinking of dropping if my enemy goes first, but if I go first, I would deploy normally. What do you think?

One of the best options from my time with Deathwing Terminators was their ability to mix a shooty weapon in with assault weapons or vice versa. I don't have any "current" advice since I redid my Dark Angels when C: SM made them pretty much obsolete, but in most squads I'd do something like: Terminator Heavy, Assault Weapon, Chainfist, Regular Terminator, Sergeant. I wouldn't bother with more than 1-2 TH/SS throughout the army at this point. When they get an update 10+ years from now (Stating it now, DA are the new DE), I'm sure that their wargear will get changed to match the the rest of the Space Marine chapters.

David pretty much summed it up.

What do you mean by assault weapon, and heavy terminator?

Your squads aren't "set" as other Terminators squads are into Assault and Shooty Squads. All Squads are come with the base 4 PF/SB and PW/SB sergeant by default, but allow for weapon upgrades on each model. So a single squad could have:

Sergeant with Power Weapon and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Heavy Flamer
Terminator with Chain Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws

Or

Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
2x Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with TH/SS

Regardless of the other weapons in a Squad, you can always get a Terminator Heavy Weapon (CML, AC, HF), and an Assault equipped Terminator (2LC, or TH/SS). That kind of versatility is the one strength that I think stands out with the Deathwing.

Heavy Terminators would be assault cannon, cyclone missile launcher, or heavy flamer. Assault Terminators would be TH/SS or lightning claws.

derek wrote:Your squads aren't "set" as other Terminators squads are into Assault and Shooty Squads. All Squads are come with the base 4 PF/SB and PW/SB sergeant by default, but allow for weapon upgrades on each model. So a single squad could have:

Sergeant with Power Weapon and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Heavy Flamer
Terminator with Chain Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws

Or

Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
2x Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with TH/SS

Regardless of the other weapons in a Squad, you can always get a Terminator Heavy Weapon (CML, AC, HF), and an Assault equipped Terminator (2LC, or TH/SS). That kind of versatility is the one strength that I think stands out with the Deathwing.

Ahh! Thank you for clearing that up, that sounds like it could be pretty good.

I have three viable DA armies: 5th company actually still works (and I don't have to use C:UM to make it work)...I get table wide LD10 from a cheap (115 points with no upgrades except a power sword) captain, and tactical squads with plasma cannons never go out of style. The second variant that's working for me is one that contains termies, bikes, and vennie dreads (this one's 23-1-2 since I got the formula down), and the third is "mechwing," which is three squads of termies mounted in land raiders, plus character(s) and vennie dread(s). Mechwing is actually pretty challenging, it doesn't take many casualties, but it has trouble (due to model count) with OBJ-based games where there are more than 3 OBJs (with three scoring land raiders, I can reliably hold two, and maybe contest one)

derek wrote:Your squads aren't "set" as other Terminators squads are into Assault and Shooty Squads. All Squads are come with the base 4 PF/SB and PW/SB sergeant by default, but allow for weapon upgrades on each model. So a single squad could have:

Sergeant with Power Weapon and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Heavy Flamer
Terminator with Chain Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Power Fist and Storm Bolter
Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws

Or

Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
2x Terminator with Twin Lightning Claws
Terminator with TH/SS

Regardless of the other weapons in a Squad, you can always get a Terminator Heavy Weapon (CML, AC, HF), and an Assault equipped Terminator (2LC, or TH/SS). That kind of versatility is the one strength that I think stands out with the Deathwing.

Precisely. Being able to customize the loadout of each member of a deathwing squad allows the squad unprecedented versatility, and allows the deathwing player to "game" the wound-assignment rules by making each member unique, so that if you have a mix of AP2 and non AP2 wounds to save, you have the greatest possible flexibility in terms of which model rolls to save which wound. That lets you "sacrifice" carefully selected models to preserve your fighting strength. Locked in melee with a dreadnought? Well, the lightning claw termie is about as useful as mamaries on a fish, so he's the first one taking a 5+ save against that DCCW. Mobbed by an IG blob squad? Sacrifice the TH/SS termie, your lightning claws are desperately needed to chew through the mob.

That's actually a fairly minor benefit, though, in comparison to the ability to put a heavy weapon in an assault terminator squad, or put a set of claws into a shooty squad. Instead of straight stormbolters or straight melee weapons, you can "tune" the squad to sacrifice a minimal amount of assaultiness to gain a heavy weapon in an assault squad (a massive upgrade from zero shootiness) or sacrifice a single stormbolter to gain a pair of claws (a massive upgrade in at-initiative assaultiness). That second one is money. Think of all the times that you're facing I3/I4 enemies, and how glad you are for a sergeant's 2-3 power weapon attacks that go before or simultaneously with the enemy before you get to hit back with powerfists. Now you get those power sword attacks AND 3-4 lightning claw attacks, which due to rerolls is the equivalent of 5-6 more power sword attacks. That's an awfully big melee upgrade in exchange for two stormbolter shots!

Thanks for clearing that up! that really helps. It sounds like you can really make them a force to be reckoned with.

I like DA. They are however SM on hard mode. The store I play at has a house rule that helps alleviate the DW issue problem by allowing you to take SM Storm Shields. I suggest your Deathwing have 3 Squads like so...

Belial w/ Lightning Claws attached to Deathwing Squad that has Apothecary with Thunder Hammer, Deathwing Banner on Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer(depending on your play style), 2x Lightning Claw and Chainfist.
2x Deathwing Squad w/ Lightning Claw, Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer ,Sgt. w/ Power Sword, and Chainfist.
Atleast one Squad of Bikers w/ Powerfist and 1-2 Special Weapons and Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta.

This allows your DW Squads to main opponents at initiative 4, 5 in Belial's case, so your less likely to take as much damage in assault and your Powerfist, Chainfist and Thunder Hammer can finish up the job. And your Chainfist is likely to open up most vehicles without an issue and your Thunder Hammer makes large opponents like Bloodthirsters go at initiative 1 next phase.

The Bikers scout move than allow your DW to deepstrike off TH's 18 inches closer (12in for scout and 6in from bikers) without mishapes and where you want them.

I DO NOT suggest anymore than 3 DW squads unless your game is over 2,000 points and I always suggest atleast 2 Tacticals in Rhinos. This helps make them Competitive and still fun. However you could always field 25 Terminators just casue you want too. That's fun too.

Second HQ choice is fun to field as Azrael w/ Command Squad, or Veterans in Rhino/Razorback. Than they all have 4+ invul's... annonying to enemy.

If you have any questions let me know, I could get into EVEN more detail if you would like.

Alright, would it be ok if I sent my list to you tomorrow to look at?

If you believe that my opinion matters it would be an honor, and I could tell you my almost tournament winning variant that I let my brother use for his FIRST tournament and lost due to low sportsmanship because people were mad about losing to a brand new player, whom was also playing DA. Such is life.

ofcBOOMstick wrote:If you believe that my opinion matters it would be an honor, and I could tell you my almost tournament winning variant that I let my brother use for his FIRST tournament and lost due to low sportsmanship because people were mad about losing to a brand new player, whom was also playing DA. Such is life.

That would be great! What point value was it at?

1,500 and it had a death star of Azrael, Belial, Apothecary w/ Thunder/Storm, Banner w/ Thunder/Storm, Lighning Claws, Heavy Flamer and Chainfist. That Squad dual-charged Sanguinis and ten Assault Marines. It proceeded to wipe all of them in one assault phase without a single casulaty. Thats why they were mad, and he got 0 for Sportmanship, however he still won best general.

I don't like them. They're the only MEQ variant I particularly dislike. Something about them irks me.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I don't like them. They're the only MEQ variant I particularly dislike. Something about them irks me.

BT and SW I hate haha, but its ok, maybe their hoods?

ofcBOOMstick wrote:1,500 and it had a death star of Azrael, Belial, Apothecary w/ Thunder/Storm, Banner w/ Thunder/Storm, Lighning Claws, Heavy Flamer and Chainfist. That Squad dual-charged Sanguinis and ten Assault Marines. It proceeded to wipe all of them in one assault phase without a single casulaty. Thats why they were mad, and he got 0 for Sportmanship, however he still won best general.

Sounds great! How could you transform that to 1,000 points? PM me if you want.

I like their fluff immensely, arguably as much as I like BA fluff. Their codex? Not so much. If I could figure out a justification for a DA successor to use BA rules, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I agree, the secrecy is very awesome, but their codex is lakcing. It would be hard to use BA tactics with them...You could do a bike army with the C:SM though.

its' hard to think of a reason to use the Codex, to be honest. Neat fluff, awesome models, and before the current SM book there was at least a few things that were unique to the DA. Now, unless you're in love with double wing, there are simply better options for damn near everything that the DA try to do. It's a shame, really.

Terrible codex. Building a DA army was the biggest waste of money ever.

scubasteve04 wrote:Terrible codex. Building a DA army was the biggest waste of money ever.

No, building a necron army is currently the biggest waste of money ever. Stupid Canadian.

revackey wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I don't like them. They're the only MEQ variant I particularly dislike. Something about them irks me.

BT and SW I hate haha, but its ok, maybe their hoods?

ofcBOOMstick wrote:1,500 and it had a death star of Azrael, Belial, Apothecary w/ Thunder/Storm, Banner w/ Thunder/Storm, Lighning Claws, Heavy Flamer and Chainfist. That Squad dual-charged Sanguinis and ten Assault Marines. It proceeded to wipe all of them in one assault phase without a single casulaty. Thats why they were mad, and he got 0 for Sportmanship, however he still won best general.

Sounds great! How could you transform that to 1,000 points? PM me if you want.

Hmm...I dunno. Their sneaky nature and how they keep HUGE secrets about their horrible past from most of the chapter. That, and they get jet-bikes

It's ok Samus, I gave him a 1,000 point list in a PM. Low models, but still VERY mean.

Huh? I was talking about why I dislike DA... Sorry. The quote was kind of all-over-the-place