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Hi, i'm a new Eldar player and i'm still getting my head around some of the rules and whatnot. Eldritch Storm says in its description "...Centred on enemy model..." and i wondered if it means that it doesn't scatter. My friend (a BA player) tells me it scatters, and i've haven't really found anything to clarify this either way

I believe that Eldrich Storm is a shooting attack (This is stated in the FAQ's - Hopefully this won't cause too much of a debate) and that it is called a ''Large Blast'' in it's description, therefore like all other large blasts dealt with in the shooting phase, it should be treated as one that scatters. I am not 100% sure on this though, it's just what I've always thought. I think centred on a model just means you can't place it in the middle-of-no-where, like stuck between two tanks to do optimum damage... Not totally sure though

The wording does seem to hint that you don't have to scatter it, but it doesn't actually say as much, so as far as I can see it should be treated as any other ranged attack and scattered appropriately.

Yes it does scatter.

Edritch Storm is a Large Blast template weapon.

Pg. 30, Paragraph 4 explains it all. (It's to much to type and I'm not sure how copyright works on this site sorry I couldn't quote it)

Hmm, well fair enough, cuz the wording is rather deceptive, but i've seen players play it as a non scatter which was one of the reasons why i wasn't sure, but this certainly clears things up

It is written that way because it was written before Blasts scattered. Since there is also no mention of a to-hit roll either I say it does not scatter. Since the scatter is in lieu of rolling to-hit.

Either way it's something that has been overlooked and left behind by 5th edition.

well thats true as well (ARGH!!! my mind is gonna explode!! ) it is a great power, but if it scatter one would need to be careful (like all blast weapons) but it'd be better if it didn't ( i admit that's what i want, but i'll follow the majority vote either way)

It DOES scatter, because the rule neither says that it doesnt NOR does it contain a fully described alternate method for resolving the Blast Marker rules.

It does not need to mention "roll to hit" as a) you didnt roll to hit in 4th and b) you roll scatter dice (hoping for a hit ) in 5th

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Since there is also no mention of a to-hit roll either I say it does not scatter.

If you're going that way, there's also no mention of units under the blast marker suffering hits according to the profile.

MekanobSamael wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Since there is also no mention of a to-hit roll either I say it does not scatter.

If you're going that way, there's also no mention of units under the blast marker suffering hits according to the profile.

If you're going that way too... There is no mention of that under the stats for the Hammerhead Rail Gun, or any other Blast Marker profile for that matter ^^
Although, the rulebook states (not sure about quoting things here...) that anything under a blast marker is Hit.

Ok right fair enough, it scatters, so I'd need to basically follow the normal rules for blast weapons when using Eldritch Storm. So ultimately it's no different from a LRG blast weapon

It also states that a blast marker scatters instead of rolling to hit.

Absence of redundancy isnt evidence of necessity. It is not necessary to remind you that blast markers scatter as this is the basic rule of the game. What IS necessary is some explicit rule the other way - if you DONT want blast markers to scatter you either explicitly state they do not, or write a self contained rule for them that replaces the normal rule.

Eldritch does neither, therefore it scatters. Simples

It is like all other large blast marker weapons.

Its rules state that you must place it centred on an enemy model. So you dont place it between 2 units and do awesome damage.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It also states that a blast marker scatters instead of rolling to hit.

Absence of redundancy isnt evidence of necessity. It is not necessary to remind you that blast markers scatter as this is the basic rule of the game. What IS necessary is some explicit rule the other way - if you DONT want blast markers to scatter you either explicitly state they do not, or write a self contained rule for them that replaces the normal rule.

All of that would make perfect sense... if ANY Blast scattered when Codex:Eldar was written, but they did not. You're assuming they are providing for a rule in the rules which didn't exist at that time.

Which is irrelevant to the rules *as they are now*. In addition this is something that could have been erratad: it hasnt been.

Otherwise I am able to assault out of moving rhinos, because 3rd allowed it.

Just because a codex was written before a specific rules was mad in the current rulebook does not give you permission to ignore the rules. It scatters. There are plenty of rules in old Codices that are either outdated or drastically altered by the new main rule book.

I'd agree with it scattering. But, if someone wanted to use it, I'd allow them to not scatter, just because it's so terrible.

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:well thats true as well (ARGH!!! my mind is gonna explode!! ) it is a great power, but if it scatter one would need to be careful (like all blast weapons) but it'd be better if it didn't ( i admit that's what i want, but i'll follow the majority vote either way)

Just an FYI (because many of us Eldar players only had to learn the hard way, through a painful process of sucking): Eldrich storm is the worst power available. S3 AP- simply is worthless against almost everything. Against Marines, he's almost as likely to wound himself through POTW than to kill a single Marine. You're much better off using a Farseer to Guide, Fortune, or Doom in support of your other units.

Grakmar wrote:Against Marines, he's almost as likely to wound himself through POTW than to kill a single Marine. You're much better off using a Farseer to Guide, Fortune, or Doom in support of your other units.

It's almost 10 times more likely to kill a Marine. But 10 times "terrible" is still "terrible".

isn't the entire point of the power to spin tanks and cause pinning tests? i didn't actually think it was for mass killing (thats more the Fire Prism's job [correct me if i'm wrong])

Yeah, it might be to spin tanks etc... But you can't Pin a tank, ergo it seems to be suggested by it's rules that you can use it against infantry. To pin you need to do at least one wound, and with S3 AP- that's 5's to just wound a Spacey. So, I'd agree that its rather useless in that regard. Considering also how the rules also state it must be placed centred ON an enemy model.

Spinning a tank around is the best thing it has to offer since other units then might be able to fire at it's rear armor.

Ok I utterly and completely agree with Grakmar. Its a completely useless power. I only ever use it when I have nothing to use that third Psychic power on (which is very very rare) because I figure it will have a better chance of killling something than a single shuriken pistol shot, though I may be wrong and the pistol my be a better option.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:
Spinning a tank around is the best thing it has to offer since other units then might be able to fire at it's rear armor.

Yes the spinning the tank around is a useful ability for it. However, you have to remember that it spins in the direction of the scatter die and very rarely will it ever spin completely around so you can hit the rear armor of a vehicle unless you get A. really lucky scatter roll or B. it rolls a hit, but you have to look at the statistics of that happening. First you have to pass your Psychic test, ok pretty good given Eldar Runes, but with all the hoods out there now good luck, second you have to then hope it doesn't scatter off the vehicle, and finally it has to roll that good scatter roll or a hit. It's just not a useful power unless, like I do, its the only thing left you have to use.

Ok, thats a fair point, i mean it would be a better power if it had a bit more grunt (despite the 2D6+3 pen). so the general overview of the power is: not worth its salt.

thanks for this, i'm glad all this was able to be clarified

Sherlock wrote:If you're going that way too...

FYI: the essence of the argument is that I am not.

I was being facetious... And I think I was actually agreeing with you on that one. I just didn't exactly word it properly...

So... the general idea is that Eldritch Storm is useless, thats a shame. i though i'd be useful to spin tanks and move in with vypers...

The rule book tells us to follow codex specific rules for individual powers if any are listed. the eldar dex tells us exactly how to use every power, including storm... with no mention of scattering.

This is a clear cut case of specific > general.
No scattering for storm.

Alerian wrote: the eldar dex tells us exactly how to use every power, including storm... with no mention of scattering.

It tells you how to roll to-hit?

kirsanth wrote:

Alerian wrote: the eldar dex tells us exactly how to use every power, including storm... with no mention of scattering.

It tells you how to roll to-hit?

Maybe?

It tells you to do the following:

1) Place large blast marker over an enemy model (no scattering mentioned)
2) Vehicles touched by the model are spun and hit
3) Nothing else for this Blast Marker
4) It then lists range, str, ap as in a normal weapon statline


So, I'd say that going by a very strict RAW approach, this actually does two things:
First, it places a large blast marker without scattering, doing 3+2D6 to vehicles and spinning them, but nothing to non-vehicles.
Second, it acts as a gun with 18" range blast weapon. This 2nd large blast behaves exactly like the profile shown, scattering and not getting a bonus penetrating die or spinning vehicles.

It still scatters, as it has NO specific rule statring it doesnt. Been through this before now....