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I (might) start collecting a Beastmen army, and i'm wondering about how competive they are in 8th. I'm not an overly competive player, but like to win a couple of games.

Any thoughts?

They are considered a contender for leas competitive along with wood elves. That being said they can still win games since 8th eddition is very well ballanced and does well to give all armies a shot at victory. They are a skill army however so keep that in mind.

Go ahead and read the last page or so of the "worst armies" thread a couple threads (maybe right below) below this one. It'll give you all the details on what's not to like, so there's no surprises. They can win in this edition, however. All armies are competitive right now, just some are more than others. If you play beastmen, it just means you have to be very cerebral in your decisions and out think your opponent. You can't be like me and my dark elves, where it's just get into combat and cast uber spell of kill on my unit or theirs, and poof! I win...

Beastmen have no armor on troops so they are going to take casualties. Toughness 4 helps. They try to make up for it by fielding more guys. Lots more guys. They have access to some good magic. Minotaurs with great weapons in groups of 6 can do significant damage.

You're basically hoping your losses are acceptible before you get into combat and try to outnumber/outflank your opponent with more troops and ambush. You have no shooting at all so you are reliant on magic and melee to carry the day. They aren't as bad as some people claim IMO. It does take a willingness to accept you're going to be taking a lot of modles off of your side of the table. You just hope you're doing as much or more to your opponent.

8th Edition Rules on victory point scoring are a huge bonus for beastmen. As has been pointed out, you're going to take a lot of casualties. However, in 8th, the only casualty that matters in each unit is the final one... if you've got one model left your opponent gets zero points and goes running home to his mommy. Or something.

The point is, a bloodbath in terms of models destroyed can be a very minor thing in terms of actual VP in some cases. Beastmen will do very well in this sort of game.

You have to really think about your list. If you intend on ambushing, I'd go for it enmasse. I'd even consider two Hordes, one out in front, the other skulking about in the bushes trying not to fart too loudly. Seriously, I don't think anyone would like a Horde turning up where they didn't expect it. Either that, or lots of little units.

Used well they can be somewhat competitive, but they have a disturbing lack of armour on their troops. Some good magic items and weapons though. Plus, the Bloodgreed special rule is very good from what I've seen and the Ambush rule isn't bad either.

Beastmen went 4-1 at the northstar gt (which is a quality tourney full of quality players) last weekend. The lack of armor on their troops can be remedied by taking LOTS of troops. Take a BSB and several low-level beast casters and you're looking at being able to cast multiple instances of Wyssan's Wildform each turn, meaning you're drowning your enemy in huge, huge numbers of s4 attacks if you took your blocks big enough. It was scary.

I think also they have a bound magic item that lets you run your troops towards him? That at least seems cool.

There was some interesting discussion on a Heelanhammer (or maybe Bad Dice, don't quite remember which) that pointed out their effectiveness escalated at higher points values. With their big stuff being so expensive, it's hard to fit both numbers and toys in a list at 2000. Another army, like Skaven, easily accomplishes this, but doesn't gain as much over the next 1000 points as the Beasts can. Not that they become world beaters at 2999, but the thought was that they were more competitive at 2999 than at 2000.

And possibly the reverse is true- RiTides has noted difficulty at small (1000 or less) points levels against all chariot armies that Beasts can bring...

Zeke makes a good point, I know at least with my elves, the most ideal point limit is the one where I can fit in two hydras, a lvl 4 caster and a lvl 2, after that there's diminishing returns. I could very well see beasts becoming pretty formidable at 2999, as I will still have about the same offensive output I can take down around 2250.

Ahoy ahoy.

Everyone had very good and valid points.
I'd like to share some of my thoughts as a beastman general.

First and foremost: you're always fighting an uphill battle. If you don't consider yourself some one who can take a few beatings and keep going, or easily demoralized....it's not the army for you.

Beastmen are in a very odd situation. We need masses of troops, but are too pricey to be a 'horde' army. Our cheapest unit, with no upgrades is at 5 points. Our signature Gor Herd is 8w upgrades that you MUST take to make them worth dime one. Our core is very solid, fairly tough (t4), fast and potentially deadly (I'll get into that later). Our downside are no armor, MISERABLE core leadership and lack of magic banners. Those being said, there is a way to counter everything if you think hard enough....dare I say adapt?
BSBs + generals + Heroes can really counter all those.
What no one has mentioned is "primal fury". The potential to have unlimited hatred and possibility of Frenzy is astounding in combat. I've watched a battered herd of gors SLAUGHTER a solid block of dwarves in 1 round of combat.
One of the uphill challenges we have is lack of any notable shooting. Our best shooting is BS 3 and just a plink plink plink situation. The lack of armor makes us vulnerable to shooting. However, we have many ways to shrug it off or just counter. Chalice of dark rain, pelt of the shadowglaive, clever uses of terrain, ambushing, fast moving troops, flanking....all of these you MUST use to minimize the effects of shooting. Our T4 will help as well; I've smiled in glee as 3 High elf RXBT volleys failed to incur a single wound as my T4 gors laughed at them.
Rare: our monsters are overpriced. Nothing else to be said for it. Most of what they can do is now obsolete or can be done for cheaper w/ core & special. IE: ghorgon costing more than 5 minotaurs who have more wounds and more attacks.

Our special forces can be used to devastating effects. There is a lot of research to be done in these before you find your style, but when you find your groove, the enemies will cower. Watching bestigors maul Dragon Princes is a favorite of mine.

Special characters: we have some amazing ones. Not all are equal, but some of them are so nasty for our army and will make enemies cry (slugtounge and Khazrak). Sadly, not a lot of models for these choices.

I could go on for ages, but on a lunch break. However, you have to realize that Beastmen don't win with flair and flash, but ranks of monstrous infantry, slaughter and butchery.

One of my favorites is that most people have never faced beastmen....and have little idea what to expect.

Best of luck.

At 5 points, ungors are comperable to skaven. What's wrong with running them as such? Can you succeed with lots and lots of big ungor units with a hard, crunchy core of good stuff mixed in for the good hits?

I figure, they're only dumb animals. Treat them as such and uncaringly throw large numbers into the fray.

Embrace the meat grinder.

ZF-

Yes but at 5 pts two of them are equal to five skavenslaves. And there is where the real trouble lies.

HoverBoy wrote:Yes but at 5 pts two of them are equal to five skavenslaves. And there is where the real trouble lies.

But ungors are WS3, come with a shield, and with a general nearby, are likely to get to re-roll to hit every round.
They're the elite horde. Slightly better than the crap units in the game, but still fairly cheap.

From what I've seen, beasts can take out large deep units pretty quickly with minotaur. Other units with cheap scrubs don't have anything near that hitting power.

-Matt

Can beasts function sans minos?

And can an ambush centric army actually work?

I actually dropped the minos from my list. You can get 4 bestigors for less than the price of 1 mino who has the same WS and T. Maybe it's my gaming enviroment, but I've watched pairs of minos disappear from cannon shots that would only kill a few bestigors. (6 mino wounds as compared to 4 bestigor wounds) Also, with their light armor, attrition is a problem.

Of course, others might have a different experience with them. I've noticed almost all the BM lists on Dakka run at least one unit of 6.

Many people rank armies into 'tiers' based on the availability or number of 'power lists' they can create from the army book. The beastmen do not have 'power lists' and are not a 'set and forget' army. The other thing is that some people don't want to spend the cash they should on their beastmen and as a result try and fatten the list with wargear and expensive units (ghorgon, Cygor, Jabberslythe, ect..) when they should be fielding more core troops.

Playing the Beastmen is like racing a car... you are on edge the whole time, at any point you could blow your motor or crash and burn. If you like that feeling, Beastmen is a good choice.

And on the mino topic I always take at least 6. They serve their purpose in more ways than one.