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Hello Dakka people, I hope you are all well.

I am currently expanding into my second army for 40k, Eldar.

I was thinking of getting the Avatar as my HQ choice, one the model looks great and two the sat line looked top notch as well.

Anyway reading the codex it makes reference to the Avatar being essentially a Daemon and should be treated as such, in reality what does this mean, other than the 4+ invulnerable save.

Cheers.

He cant be instant killed he is fearless and and has the invuln save. Can also be hurt by weapons that specifically target deamons. I dont know any check the grey knights codex.

GK have some rules otherwise its just a 4++ inv save... (note he can be instantly killed)

Punisher91090 wrote:He cant be instant killed he is fearless and and has the invuln save. Can also be hurt by weapons that specifically target deamons. I dont know any check the grey knights codex.

He CAN be instant killed. However he is fearless though.

Cheers, what about deep strike? Does the Avatar have to deploy the same as Daemons?

He can be instant killed.
@OP: he is a deamon for the purposes of weapons that harm deamons or have effects vs. it.

It has NOTHING to do with Codex: Chaos Daemons.

deejaybainbridge wrote:Cheers, what about deep strike? Does the Avatar have to deploy the same as Daemons?

No daemon rule does two things ... inv and GK rules nothing more.

deejaybainbridge wrote:Cheers, what about deep strike? Does the Avatar have to deploy the same as Daemons?

He does not follow any of the same rules as Codex daemons.

Tri wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:Cheers, what about deep strike? Does the Avatar have to deploy the same as Daemons?

No daemon rule does two things ... inv and GK rules nothing more.

Cheers, have to say the codex was very unclear as to what treating the model as a daemon actually refered to.

As a daemon he doesnt get instant killed if he could he wouldn't be a daemon he would just be a fearless monsterous creature. Also I don't think he deep strikes you will have to get some other opinions on that.

Punisher91090 wrote:As a daemon he doesnt get instant killed if he could he wouldn't be a daemon he would just be a fearless monsterous creature. Also I don't think he deep strikes you will have to get some other opinions on that.

HA! okey dokey!

Punisher91090...were are you getting this?

Codex Daemons came YEARS after the Avatar was released.

The Avatar CAN get instant killed. It's the T6 that prevents many things from doing so, but there are ways around it.
Edit: T5 makes it more laughable.
Edit: T6 cause second guessing yourself sucks.

It being a daemon has nothing to do with the Codex Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason why the rules have a Daemon entry for it was purely for the Daemon Hunters codex at the time that had wargear that was effective vs. Deamons, which an Avatar was similar to.

I'd Love it if there was a Daemon USR ... “Models save is invulnerable and has the Fearless and Eternal warrior special rules. When this rule is listed with a second save, this is the models armour save.” ... but there isn't. All Daemon does is give you an inv and make it easier for GK to kill you.

I agree we need a Dæmon USR, though I would restrict it to just "Has the Fearless and Eternal Warrior USRs. In addition, it counts as a Dæmon for any and all effects that refer to Dæmons." and leave the Invul Save bit to the codex.

The "Daemon" rule for the Avatar means ONLY ONLY ONLY:

He has a 3+ Armour Save.
He has a 4+ Invulnerable Save.
Any weapon or ability that is triggered by interaction with a daemon (e.g. Runic Weapons wound on a 2+ against daemons, a Daemonhammer strikes at normal initiative against daemons, etc), will do so against the Avatar of Khaine.

That is it. Nothing else.

We can only dream...

Sanctjud wrote:Punisher91090...were are you getting this?

Codex Daemons came YEARS after the Avatar was released.

The Avatar CAN get instant killed. It's the T6 that prevents many things from doing so, but there are ways around it.

It being a daemon has nothing to do with the Codex Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason why the rules have a Daemon entry for it was purely for the Daemon Hunters codex at the time that had wargear that was effective vs. Deamons, which an Avatar was similar to.

It doesn't matter if the Daemons codex came after. Its treated as a daemon and daemons cant be instant killed this is 5th edition and both of the codices were around when they made the rules for 5th its not like the daemons codex came out recently in which case I would say your absolutely right but I resolutely feel that you are wrong and that because he is treated as a daemon he cannot be instant deathed. So until you provide some sort of documented proof that specifically says "The Avatar of Khaine can be instant killed even though he is treated as a daemon" I am going to go with he cannot be instant killed.

Can you provide proof of your claim that is in the Eldar Codex?

Wraith Cannons that roll a 6 can instant kill him.
Force Weapons that wound him can instant kill him.

He does not have eternal warrior and there is no USR 'Daemons', so you can't use another Codex to justify YourOwnHammer as rules.

So, can I use the Ork codex to make all my Blood Claws fearless? Because that has the same backing as what you are saying.

Daemon: To all intents and purposes, an avatar is a daemon and will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect daemons. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save and his 3+ amor save.

"TO ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, AN AVATAR IS A DAEMON..." right there in the codex seems pretty straight forward to me.

Also if you want to check it yourself its on page 24 of the codex.

Punisher91090 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Punisher91090...were are you getting this?

Codex Daemons came YEARS after the Avatar was released.

The Avatar CAN get instant killed. It's the T6 that prevents many things from doing so, but there are ways around it.

It being a daemon has nothing to do with the Codex Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason why the rules have a Daemon entry for it was purely for the Daemon Hunters codex at the time that had wargear that was effective vs. Deamons, which an Avatar was similar to.

It doesn't matter if the Daemons codex came after. Its treated as a daemon and daemons cant be instant killed this is 5th edition and both of the codices were around when they made the rules for 5th its not like the daemons codex came out recently in which case I would say your absolutely right but I resolutely feel that you are wrong and that because he is treated as a daemon he cannot be instant deathed. So until you provide some sort of documented proof that specifically says "The Avatar of Khaine can be instant killed even though he is treated as a daemon" I am going to go with he cannot be instant killed.

LOL. Your wrong, and i would actually like you to point out were it states that the eldar codex can use rules from other codex.

Yea, and?

He is affected by weapons and abilities that AFFECT daemons....like Daemon Hunter weapons and wargear.
He is a Daemon as it is defined so within the confines of the Eldar Codex.

It is a permissive rules set and it does not give you permission to use the definition of Daemon(from a rules standpoint) from a different codex.

We already had a thread on this...

It's even on the front page...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/325271.page


You are still wrong Punisher91090.

If a daemon is a daemon is a daemon why can't daemons from Codex Chaos Daemons assault after deepstriking like the lesser and greater daemons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, and?

He is affected by weapons and abilities that AFFECT daemons....like Daemon Hunter weapons and wargear.
He is a Daemon as it is defined so within the confines of the Eldar Codex.

It is a permissive rules set and it does not give you permission to use the definition of Daemon(from a rules standpoint) from a different codex.

The problem here is the eldar codex doesn't define daemon at all it says "to all intents and purposes, an avatar is a daemon...
I'm going to stop right there and explain something. The codex says he's a daemon right? right. It doesn't define what a daemon is the rule then continues saying "AND will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect daemons." Let me explain this now, It doesn't define daemon it says he's a daemon and is thusly affected by the weapons and abilities that hurt daemons, so if he's a daemon then how can he be instant killed since daemons cannot be instant killed. I say that this is rules poorly written.

From a table top stand point how many people are going to go to this much trouble over something so trivial, I feel like nobody would because as you can see here we've been arguing for what over an hour, about something that isn't that big a deal.

@italiaplaya when you accuse someone of being wrong point out how thier wrong. To the best of my knowledge the only description of daemon comes from the chaos daemons codex, if you have something in your army that is treated as a daemon where are you going to look for the rules that apply to daemons? Obvious answer is chaos daemon codex. I'm not pulling rules from another codex to try and prove I'm right I'm doing it because there is no other set of rules for daemons that I have seen yet.

@Arschbombe I have no idea I don't have the CSM codex its probably a rule specifically for that army, much like how units cant assault out of a vehicle after its moved but Space Marine armys can assault out of land raiders after they have moved. It is more than likely an army specific rule and not a daemon specific rule.

Again:
It's a permissive rules set.
No where does it say you can use the defined term of 'Daemon' from Codex: Deamons. Therefore you can't.

Period.

___________________________

Dude....ahhahahahahhahahahhahahaha
'isn't that big a deal'.... then don't post on You Make the Call. When you step in here, it's all RAW and coming to an answer.... "it's no big deal" is not an answer.

In addition, it is a big deal when you have Str 10 weapons, force weapons, or wraithcannon-equivalents.
Edit: arrg second guessed myself thrice over.

Then what definition will you use? Since the Eldar codex doesn't have one that specifically explains what a daemon is.

The problem here is the eldar codex doesn't define daemon at all it says "to all intents and purposes, an avatar is a daemon...
I'm going to stop right there and explain something. The codex says he's a daemon right? right. It doesn't define what a daemon is the rule then continues saying "AND will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect daemons." Let me explain this now, It doesn't define daemon it says he's a daemon and is thusly affected by the weapons and abilities that hurt daemons, so if he's a daemon then how can he be instant killed since daemons cannot be instant killed. I say that this is rules poorly written.

From a table top stand point how many people are going to go to this much trouble over something so trivial, I feel like nobody would because as you can see here we've been arguing for what over an hour, about something that isn't that big a deal.

@italiaplaya when you accuse someone of being wrong point out how thier wrong. To the best of my knowledge the only description of daemon comes from the chaos daemons codex, if you have something in your army that is treated as a daemon where are you going to look for the rules that apply to daemons? Obvious answer is chaos daemon codex. I'm not pulling rules from another codex to try and prove I'm right I'm doing it because there is no other set of rules for daemons that I have seen yet.

@Arschbombe I have no idea I don't have the CSM codex its probably a rule specifically for that army, much like how units cant assault out of a vehicle after its moved but Space Marine armys can assault out of land raiders after they have moved. It is more than likely an army specific rule and not a daemon specific rule.

Why would the Avitar follow the "Daemon" special rule from another codex? You don't pick rules out of specific codices. You can in fact be directed to the rulebook for special rules. There is no "daemon" special rule in the rulebook. Therefore the Avatar follows the rules of his own codex.

I agree that it makes no sense that he would be able to be force weapone'd ect, but at the same time the rules are the rules. There is nothing that states he is immune to ID. Therefore he isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Then what definition will you use? Since the Eldar codex doesn't have one that specifically explains what a daemon is.

He is a daemon for the purposes of being effected by weapons that have advantages versus daemons. See codex Grey Knights or a Rune Priests force weapon. They wound daemons on a 2+. The definition of a daemon classifies him as such. He has an inv save from it as well. That is all.

Well, is every Daemon (apart from the Avatar) immune to ID? Or, is that just the ones from Codex: Daemons?

Also, Avatar is T6. Str 10 guns do not instant kill him.

Not only that.
As much as you suggest us to get evidence, you are not providing evidence to support your claims.

The page and line you point out Punisher91090, do not support your claim.