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Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

I'm starting to think that he is just trolling. No one would go to another codex and claim that you could use the rules there, right????

I fail to see how it doesn't support my claim, It supports it it just might not support it very well. Since we have eached a conclusion thanks to Jgrand, I think we can agree that the avatar is merely a wanna be daemon so that he can fit in with the other daemons by saying "hey guys I hate what you hate too! that makes us friends now." He's just a model that has a few strange trade-offs he can't be hurt by meltas and flamers but on the other hand can be hurt by stuff that hurts daemons.

JGrand wrote:

Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

I'm starting to think that he is just trolling. No one would go to another codex and claim that you could use the rules there, right????

me trolling or him?

Well, this has been pretty funny, so I ain't anywhere near the Alert button .

I fail to see how it doesn't support my claim, It supports it it just might not support it very well. Since we have eached a conclusion thanks to Jgrand, I think we can agree that the avatar is merely a wanna be daemon so that he can fit in with the other daemons by saying "hey guys I hate what you hate too! that makes us friends now." He's just a model that has a few strange trade-offs he can't be hurt by meltas and flamers but on the other hand can be hurt by stuff that hurts daemons.

Yeah it is very lame. I'd agree it makes no sense. Sadly, you have to use your own self contained codex unless you are directed to the rulebook for universal special rules.

me trolling or him?

I meant him, but it seems he was legitimately confused. It happens.

Make sure you account for the fact that Games Workshop employees aren't actually living Seers with clairvoyance: they didn't write the Eldar Codex with the intention of, years later, explaining exactly what a Daemon was in the Daemon Codex.

Quick, summon the Taco man!

GIR: But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes...

But yeah, to get back on topic, there is no way you can justify looking at the Dæmons codex for an Eldar unit, the same way you cannot look at the SM codex for a BT Land Raider.

And now I'm not confused So there really is not daemon special rule in the 5th ed codex? I only have the little one but not even in the big hardcover one? I find that to be a HUGE OVERSITE on GW's part. So now we have to wait another 4 or 5 years before they fix their screw up.

Punisher91090 wrote:Then what definition will you use? Since the Eldar codex doesn't have one that specifically explains what a daemon is.

If there is no definition for a given rule, then that rules does nothing unless it is specifically referenced by some other effect. You don't get to just choose a rule that seems suitable from a different codex.

The Eldar Codex says that the Avatar counts as a Daemon. It doesn't say that means to use the rules for Daemons from Codex: Daemons. Nor does it say to use the rules for Daemons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (which can be ID'd, incidentally... not all Daemons are alike). So you use neither of those books. The Avatar is to all intents and purposes a Daemon... which means pretty much nothing unless there is something on the table that has a specific effect against Daemons.

And now I'm not confused So there really is not daemon special rule in the 5th ed codex? I only have the little one but not even in the big hardcover one? I find that to be a HUGE OVERSITE on GW's part. So now we have to wait another 4 or 5 years before they fix their screw up.

There is no "Daemon" universal special rule that gives a sweeping set of rules of a model or unit. The "Daemon" rule will be different in the Eldar, Daemons, and CSM codex. There is no "Daemon" USR in the big rulebook. The only universal application is the determination of what is a daemon when effected by special rules such as Grey Knight abilities or a SW Rune Priests force weapon.

Otherwise they are very different.

...
No there is no USR Daemon.
You would see it in the Small Rulebook to...well, you would see the absence of an entry in the USR labeled as Daemon.

As for Huge Oversite...you are discounting the whole:
A) Daemon Codex came way after Eldar.
B) It's a for profit business so covering up these holes is not making them more money.
C) This was pretty easy of an answer compared to other black holes.
D) Don't be surprised, it's GW and shat like this happens.

Punisher91090 wrote:And now I'm not confused So there really is not daemon special rule in the 5th ed codex? I only have the little one but not even in the big hardcover one? I find that to be a HUGE OVERSITE on GW's part. So now we have to wait another 4 or 5 years before they fix their screw up.

If, by '5th ed codex' you mean 'rulebook'... then no, there is no Daemon rule. This is not an oversight. Again, the Avatar has that rule for the same reason that he has always had that rule: Certain abilities or weapons affect Daemons in certain ways. The Avatar is a special kind of Daemon, and so has the Daemon rule to clarify that he is affected by these things just as any other Daemon would be.

Daemons don't all follow the same rules. But they are all affected by things that affect Daemons.

@Punisher
Barring the fact that there is no USR for Daemons, try to understand the difference between codices.

Imagine Dark Angels as their own race. Blood Angels - their own race. Codex: Space Marines - their own seperate thing.

You can't use anything in any codex across codices. They're completely and utterly different rules for different armies. The only thing you can apply to all armies is the 40K rule book.

It's hard to understand because of similar wording, and similar model types. The word "Daemon" is used in multiple codices, but it means a different thing in each one. Marines with Bolt Pistols are featured in just about every codex, but each one has a different point value, and can take different gear.

Unless you are Dark Angels... then GW Flip Flops on you...such a stupid entry in that FAQ.

Yea, the FAQ for DA - not the codex itself ;D

Stop throwing wrenches in this topic!

got it and yes I meant the rule book sorry for saying codex. Hopefully when the next eldar codex comes out in a few years that might be more specific, because now I just feel like an ass for arguing something that seemd wrong to me but to everyone else was clean cut and dry "punisher you tard what the f*** are you even talking about there is no way that it could be interpreted that way" that is just the impression I'm getting now that I look back at the thread. Also did anyone else notice that OP vanished?

got it and yes I meant the rule book sorry for saying codex. Hopefully when the next eldar codex comes out in a few years that might be more specific, because now I just feel like an ass for arguing something that seemd wrong to me but to everyone else was clean cut and dry "punisher you tard what the f*** are you even talking about there is no way that it could be interpreted that way" that is just the impression I'm getting now that I look back at the thread. Also did anyone else notice that OP vanished?

NP man, everyone makes mistakes. Hopefully the new Eldar dex is good because they do need help.

Esp. now that DE get their new shiney Creep Dex.
And wrentches are crazy useful things to be throwing around

JGrand wrote:

Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

I'm starting to think that he is just trolling. No one would go to another codex and claim that you could use the rules there, right????

To play devil's advocate, what are the rules for Dark Eldar Harlequins Shuriken Pistols?

DarknessEternal wrote:

JGrand wrote:

Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

I'm starting to think that he is just trolling. No one would go to another codex and claim that you could use the rules there, right????

To play devil's advocate, what are the rules for Dark Eldar Harlequins Shuriken Pistols?

About £17.50 from the advance order section if I recall.

DarknessEternal wrote:

JGrand wrote:

Quite frankly you are wrong once again. Looking at rules in another codex would NEVER be the obvious thing to do.

I'm starting to think that he is just trolling. No one would go to another codex and claim that you could use the rules there, right????

To play devil's advocate, what are the rules for Dark Eldar Harlequins Shuriken Pistols?

The Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, just like it tells you in the codex.

Fancy that, the codex telling you where to find the rules for something. UNPOSSIBLE!

lol this was an amusing read.... especially since this was discussed in another topic... Oh well. just to keep on tpoic.

avatars are treated as daemons ONLY for things that affect them. mainly GK and some other imperial psychic stuff. as for other special rules, your 'dex will state everything and anything they have. any USR will refer to the BRB. never have i seen one codex refer you to a complete diffrent one for a rule. (with the exception of GK/WH allies)

also keep in mind the avatar has T:6, a 4+ invun. odds are, he wont he insta killed by much of anything... and as i mentioned in previous thread if he encounters something suitably powerful enough to do this, then they are probally on equal points/footing.

Wow. That got interesting.

Cheers for clearing all that up, tho over two pages was maybe a bit much.

I recently had a dispute over Necrons because of different editions. It doesn't matter if the daemon codex was out when the eldar codex was or not. What does matter is that the eldar codex does not state "The Avatar is a daemon as DEFINED IN THE DAEMON CODEX." It just says that is a daemon when considering weapons that hurt daemons. In order for you to have the daemon definition from the daemon codex it would need to state for you to refer to the daemon codex.

And don't complain...because if the Avatar had all the daemon special rules it would be better than any daemon in the daemon codex...and that would be crap if the Eldar had the best daemon available...how would you like it if the daemons had the best eldar available?

Shenra wrote:I recently had a dispute over Necrons because of different editions. It doesn't matter if the daemon codex was out when the eldar codex was or not. What does matter is that the eldar codex does not state "The Avatar is a daemon as DEFINED IN THE DAEMON CODEX." It just says that is a daemon when considering weapons that hurt daemons. In order for you to have the daemon definition from the daemon codex it would need to state for you to refer to the daemon codex.

And don't complain...because if the Avatar had all the daemon special rules it would be better than any daemon in the daemon codex...and that would be crap if the Eldar had the best daemon available...how would you like it if the daemons had the best eldar available?

I agree with you interpretation of the rules.

I dont think it would be crap if the avatar was better than all the demons because it is literally a shard of a god. Can you actually field Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh or a part of them? Nope. But it also wouldnt make sense for the Avatar to deep strike like demons.

crimsonmicc wrote:I dont think it would be crap if the avatar was better than all the demons because it is literally a shard of a god. Can you actually field Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh or a part of them?

Er... yes, actually, you can. The Greater Daemons of Chaos are avatars of their respective deities in more or less exactly the same way as the Eldar Avatar is an Avatar of Khaine.

insaniak wrote:

crimsonmicc wrote:I dont think it would be crap if the avatar was better than all the demons because it is literally a shard of a god. Can you actually field Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh or a part of them?

Er... yes, actually, you can. The Greater Daemons of Chaos are avatars of their respective deities in more or less exactly the same way as the Eldar Avatar is an Avatar of Khaine.

Just want to do a bit of nit picking here, each Eldar Avatar for every craftworld is part of the god Kahine just shattered and strewn across the galaxy so the Avatar is literally a portion of the god wheras the greater daemons are just the strongest most trusted of servants of the chaos gods and are not actually parts of the gods. If you want to get really technical all the daemons are made from the same warp energy so technically all the lesser daemons are gods and all the gods are lesser daemons its just what shape the warp energy takes. I think thats what it said in the daemons codex anyway.

Punisher91090 wrote:Just want to do a bit of nit picking here, each Eldar Avatar for every craftworld is part of the god Kahine just shattered and strewn across the galaxy so the Avatar is literally a portion of the god wheras the greater daemons are just the strongest most trusted of servants of the chaos gods and are not actually parts of the gods.

Greater Daemons are more than just servants. They are a living manifestation of the God they serve. 'Incarnations of their God' as the Chaos Space Marines codex puts it.

Which sounds a little scarier than the big melty guy who happens to have a part of Khaine's foot, frankly.

If you want to get really technical all the daemons are made from the same warp energy so technically all the lesser daemons are gods and all the gods are lesser daemons its just what shape the warp energy takes. I think thats what it said in the daemons codex anyway.

Not exactly. The idea is that each of the different types of Daemons is a greater or lesser manifestation of the powers of that god, from the lesser Daemons who only represent a fraction of the God's power, to the Greater Daemons, who are about as solid as it's possible for a Chaos God to get. That's the way I've always taken the various scattered bits of fluff, anyway.

But really, this is getting a bit off topic. Although, people disagreeing on just what a Chaos being really is kind of seems appropriate on some level...

No where in the daemon section of the Avatar page does it say that the Avatar benifits from the same special rules as daemons from the CSM and DoC codiced.

It says that he will be affected by weapons and abilities that affect daemons but as I look at the page again I see nothing saying he gets the same abilities as daemons from other codices. And IF he did get those abilities I'm pretty sure that piece of information would have been put into the Eldar Q&A when the DoC codex came out since it would be a pretty big change. Hang on....just checked there and not one thing saying he gets the special rules of other daemons.

I'm also pretty sure that the "To all intents and purposes, an Avatar is a Daemon" bit is just the fluff introduction to the Daemon section of the Avatar and not an actual declaration of rules. If that's the case and your logic was right Punisher91010 then the next section where it says "The Avatar is the living incarnation of a god" means that he can't be killed by anything, ever. I'll be GW made a model that can't be killed in any way in a game would you look at that.

@OP: I would ignore what Punisher91010 is saying. It's not founded on.....well anything except for probably a very very far stretch and a twist to try and grab something that dosen't exist.

You can listen to everyone else though, they know what they're talking about