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http://www.513cag.org/wordpress/
If Battle report doesnt show up, make sure to scroll down, all the way down sometimes it loads wrong but it is there

Also great resource, for members who are from ohio, cincinatti area, for finding games and stores
www.513caq.org

So are Grey Knights Underpowered that bad?

I would love to look at your battle report, but i cannot read the writing, it blends in with the background too well,

Torin the Wayfarer wrote:I would love to look at your battle report, but i cannot read the writing, it blends in with the background too well,

it reads to me as black text on a white background.

just an awful outcome for the GK; a stack of stormtroopers with some flamers or an IG blob squad rather than PAGK might have toughened his army up a little? i dunno.

It looks to me like grey writing on a grey-brown background

grey knight have it tough against any newer edition codex

Sorry but you are mistaken...

Grey Knights completely own the new DE codex.

Do well vs. Orks, Tyranid, and some marine lists.


You pack up on as many psycannons possible with a few lascannon shots...That's how you play them to their best ability.


The only armies that really give me issues are bike armies (white scars, ravenwing), mech guard, BW spam orks.

Owning the new DE codex seems like a bit of a huge statement, especially considering the time frame involved. Did the DE player just fly up to 18' from your PAGK and let you rip him apart with Psycannon blasts? Cause that seems like the only way that DH would "Own" the new codex that seems to have few issues with any other marine codex (besides SW).

I guess GK are great against DL Spam lists, but I also don't think that is the most competitive build for DE anymore.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Sorry but you are mistaken...

Grey Knights completely own the new DE codex.

Do well vs. Orks, Tyranid, and some marine lists.


You pack up on as many psycannons possible with a few lascannon shots...That's how you play them to their best ability.


The only armies that really give me issues are bike armies (white scars, ravenwing), mech guard, BW spam orks.

Flyinmiata i find it hard to believe you in a normal 1,500 point army how many psycannons would you have?

11 psycannons in my 1500pt army

33 shots at 6str

and 2 TL lascannon dreads


Brother Captain
psycannon

4 Terminators
2 psycannons

3x 7 PAGKs
2 psycannons each

2x Inquisitors
psycannons & power armor

2x Dreadnought
HF & TL lascannon

Melta bombs on a Justicar
1500pts

Land raiders though nice, spamming them in a DH list is bad bad bad...250pts for 2 TL lascannon shots...ehhhhh 2 Dreadnoughts are just a little more. Give them cover and they are tough as nails to bring down. Grey Knights being so expensive, you need to get as much firepower as possible out of them. Having 1/3 of your army only bringing you 4 lascannon shots sucks. 1 Land raider is cool, but I don't touch them until 1850pts.

Grey Knights start to come into their own at 1850pts.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Sorry but you are mistaken...

Grey Knights completely own the new DE codex.

Do well vs. Orks, Tyranid, and some marine lists.


You pack up on as many psycannons possible with a few lascannon shots...That's how you play them to their best ability.


The only armies that really give me issues are bike armies (white scars, ravenwing), mech guard, BW spam orks.

Have you played the new DE codex yet? How many different builds have you fought against? Do you have battle reports? Because without them I will say your statement "Grey knights completely own the new DE codex" is garbage. I will refrain from listing unit by unit how the DE will terrorize, enslave, and generally do bad things to the over-priced and limited in numbers Grey Knights.

I've played vs the new codex for almost 2 months now thanks to internet codex leaks. Played 1500 and 1850.

Have fought vs. 4 builds multiple times (with small tweaks each time played)...Have lost 2x of probably 10-12 games, and a couple draws. Both of those losses I was massacred (rolling horribly didn't help). I also tabled my opponents a few times. Pop their transports and it's over...Which is easily done with a massive amt of 6str shooting.

DE are a 1 shot pop army. You'll see TONS of armies on Ebay soon as they just aren't that great. It's a decent codex, but they didn't change much. They still bring 17 KPs to the table all very easily killed but can pump out tons of lance shots.

If you can whether through the first 2 rds of their shooting, you probably have the game in the bag.

i couldn't read your writing at all the font color blends in to well i suggest you change it.

lordfat wrote:grey knight have it tough against any newer edition codex

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Sorry but you are mistaken...

Grey Knights completely own the new DE codex.

They would, wouldn't they- ID everything, vehicles very vulnerable to psycannons, ect.

knightofdread wrote:i couldn't read your writing at all the font color blends in to well i suggest you change it.

I just highlited it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Smitty0305 wrote:So are Grey Knights Underpowered that bad?

Yes, unless you know how to use them to thier full potential- wait til' the new codex comes out

Psycannon-spam is only effective only against DE. Any other mech army would scoff at them.

Interesting battle report. I'll have to run my nids against my friends grey knights and see what result we get. Probably play a 2000 point game though as I believe grey knights only get better at higher point games and I like a challenge!

Gizmodious wrote:Interesting battle report. I'll have to run my nids against my friends grey knights and see what result we get. Probably play a 2000 point game though as I believe grey knights only get better at higher point games and I like a challenge!

BATTLE REP!

post the link here when you've done.

jy2 wrote:Psycannon-spam is only effective only against DE. Any other mech army would scoff at them.

LOL ok tell that to a daemon, monstrous creature nid list, Orks, and Tau.

All easy transport killing. A MC daemon goes down in 1 squad of shooting. Nids get jacked up as well.


Like I said before, IF you know how to play DHs the way they need to be played to stay competitive, you can win alot of games. You only fear mech guard, green tide, nid swarm, land raider/vindicator spam, and bikes. Most people play DH's offensive and that = fail. Yeah they have great stats but that doesn't mean you go tossing 25pt models into anything you can get your hands on...Must shoot as much as possible, staying out of melee...

Thanks for posting, I love reading about grey knights...my guys are afraid to even take the field, even though they are well painted and quite excellent models,

As to the above comment about DE armies being for sale...I totally agree. All armies come up for sale on ebay a few months after they come out, but I think DE will be even more so. At least I hope. I dumped my DE and necrons fearing new codices and hoping for cheaper updated armies down the line on ebay, lol.

I'm holding onto my Grey knights, though, I love the look of the army...even if I don't feel comfortable letting them take to the field,

I love it too as most people rip them and have never played the army. Nor played against a highly competitive DH list that has a great general playing them.

If they ever do come across those very few people...They all react like "Holy $#!+". And then you just smile


But yeah I cannot wait for the new codex and my current 3.5k pure DH army is going to expand a little lol!

Flyinmiata1 wrote:

jy2 wrote:Psycannon-spam is only effective only against DE. Any other mech army would scoff at them.

LOL ok tell that to a daemon, monstrous creature nid list, Orks, and Tau.

Ok, so daemons is another list that psycannon-spam may do well against....but even that isn't a gimme. Tau will shoot you dead or to a drawfest if you just stick to cover relying on shrouding. Orks don't care much with the battlewagons full of nobs and 4+ cover. Nids will flat-out own DH with their competitive builds unless you're taking land raiders.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
All easy transport killing. A MC daemon goes down in 1 squad of shooting. Nids get jacked up as well.

I agree with the MC daemon, unless it was a khorne army (with 3+ saves). You are under-estimating the resiliency of Nid toughness. They can have more T6 wounds then you have S6 psycannon shots, and if you shoot their troops, they just spawn new ones.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
Like I said before, IF you know how to play DHs the way they need to be played to stay competitive, you can win alot of games. You only fear mech guard, green tide, nid swarm, land raider/vindicator spam, and bikes. Most people play DH's offensive and that = fail. Yeah they have great stats but that doesn't mean you go tossing 25pt models into anything you can get your hands on...Must shoot as much as possible, staying out of melee...

Let me add a few more to the "fear" list - BA FNP assault marines, space wolf thundercavalry, space wolf grey hunter-spam, MSU razor-spam, mechdar, nob bikers, ork battlewagons, chaos dread-spam, BA dread-spam, soulgrinder daemons, the list goes on.....

Against a good player with a good list from one of the newer codices, pure foot GK's just can't hack it. They have problems against any vehicle not a trukk, land speeder and raider. Sure it may be fun to play all those GK's, but they need the help of Inquisitorial stormtroopers or inducted guard to be successful. They help to mitigate the high costs of the grey knights.

Every army list you just posted is a top list period for facing any type of army...So don't try to use them to make DHs look bad...Your army will fear any of those...

Did I ever say they are a tournament winning codex? God no...All I am saying is they are better than 90% of people who don't play them believe they are as most people play them like normal space marines and that's where they fail. Put DHs in competent hands and you are in for a tough game. With DE being the new thing, DH players just found another codex they dominate against, to go along with Necrons, witch hunters, most daemon lists, and most Ork lists.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:11 psycannons in my 1500pt army

33 shots at 6str

and 2 TL lascannon dreads


Brother Captain
psycannon

4 Terminators
2 psycannons

3x 7 PAGKs
2 psycannons each

2x Inquisitors
psycannons & power armor

2x Dreadnought
HF & TL lascannon

Melta bombs on a Justicar
1500pts

Land raiders though nice, spamming them in a DH list is bad bad bad...250pts for 2 TL lascannon shots...ehhhhh 2 Dreadnoughts are just a little more. Give them cover and they are tough as nails to bring down. Grey Knights being so expensive, you need to get as much firepower as possible out of them. Having 1/3 of your army only bringing you 4 lascannon shots sucks. 1 Land raider is cool, but I don't touch them until 1850pts.

Grey Knights start to come into their own at 1850pts.

You have 2 antitank weapons in your 1500 list.
This list is not scary at all, it needs a lot of work- even by DH's very low standards.

I can't see how list beats any mech list. Ever. Strength 6 is not dedicated antitank, if you shoot all your str 6 at weaker transports thats just less shots going into the targets that Psycannons are actually decent against.
And how in hell is a foot list with 2 (two!!) slow moving fragile lascannon platforms forcing a DE list to get close to your line and even bringing the Psycannons into play? With only 2 (TWO.... can't get over that...) long range weapons the only time the DE will get close to your line will be when they feel like it, and that will be to jam an assault squad down the throat of one of your stagnat and relatively fragile troop choices.

-Any mech force will laugh at your 2 lascannons.
-Any foot list will also laugh at your weak and easily silenced ranged fire, and slow movement and tiny numbers.
-Any fast list (Read: Eldar/ Dark Eldar) will run circles around this shortranged slow list, and get to pick their fights 99% of the time.
-And Tyranids will just swarm you- this list just doesn't have the firepower to hurt all the tiny bugs and MC's at the same time.

Sincerely, maybe you are just a much better player than the people you are playing against- because your list is as close to 'utter gak' as any I have seen. Poke around the army list section and look at some of the stronger lists, and imagine your list trying to put up a fight with just 2 antitank weapons.


**ON TOPIC**
Nicely painted Tyranids- and nice helpful annotations on the pics, just need to fix that font colour

DE have same range as psycannons, thx. Except in return shrouding can save a bunch of attacks back at them, and it's a near guarantee you're taking out a transport with each squad firing. 4+ cover don't do nothing when you have 3-4 penetrating hits.

What is the difference between 2 dreads and 1 land raider??? Nothing, 2 TL lascannon shots, except I can keep a dread in cover and get a 4+. Land Raiders vs. DE is a joke with lance weaponry.

You should try playing DH sometime before you start talking about what they can or can't do or how you play them. 33 psycannon shots will rape rhinos, chimeras, any DE transport, and trukks (the main transports you see)...You use them to open up transports and then hit the infantry inside...Dreads also fire into them...You completely ignore 13+ armor playing DHs.

At 1500pts, if you put 500-750pts into land raiders, you will lose near every game with all the melta/lance weapons now, and a lack of putting out any type of dmg period. I used to run a land raider and 2 dreads at 1500 but found the land raider not doing much for the point sink it costs in that army.

Who in the world puts infantry on foot these days besides Orks??? Every troop squad is in a transport and that's exactly what DHs crush. Do PAGKs need to fear basilisks, land raiders, leman russes, or heavy weapon teams with them parked on back board edges? nope...They won't ever be in range, move them up and now they are wasting rds just to get in range. I worry about vindicators, and even then I'm getting cover saves.

You should try playing against DHs that don't rely on hiding 300pt squads in 250pt land raiders or lists set up to assault with incinerators.

And as I've stated before DHs start to come into their own at 1850...


This is getting way off topic. Are Grey Knights totally underpowered? Absolutely not, then can pump out alot of mid dmg firepower and the same long range firepower a typical marine list would have. Are they a top codex? No way, even successful DHs players will admit that.

@Flyinmiata1 you are laughable, i thought you were making good points untill foldalot riped you one, i feel you need to stop playing your one opponent and start playing people who are good or who atleast know how to play thier armies, ill try your army list, but i wont give you feed back cause im blocking you b/c you just piss me off, because your so stuck up

lordfat wrote:@Flyinmiata1 you are laughable, i thought you were making good points untill foldalot riped you one, i feel you need to stop playing your one opponent and start playing people who are good or who atleast know how to play thier armies, ill try your army list, but i wont give you feed back cause im blocking you b/c you just piss me off, because your so stuck up

So because he offered his opinion and was maybe a little obnoxious means hes stuck up? Stuck up is when you say your right, you look down on people, and honestly you just don't care. He is not stuck up at all. And just because Foldalot(no offense) says something that appeals to you, you instantly think hes right in every single sense?

He can think and say what he likes...I'm not offended, and he has the right. It's quite obvious they've never seen a good general play a decent GK army list however. All the arguments they laid out were tourney winning lists that any army would struggle with so it proves nothing really.

I have alot of success with my DHs playing in a store with maybe 15 different players with a cpl months to 10+ years playing experience. Just because they haven't seen them played well, doesn't mean they aren't a competitive army. Hell even Necrons can be quite competitive if played properly and have a good list.

I never did say they were the ultra codex. They are far from that and I admitted that fact. When played with a competent player they can do extremely well however. It's all mute though as they will have a new codex soon, and hopefully they will be the small elite army that handles their business finally.

.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:DE have same range as psycannons, thx. Except in return shrouding can save a bunch of attacks back at them, and it's a near guarantee you're taking out a transport with each squad firing. 4+ cover don't do nothing when you have 3-4 penetrating hits.

What is the difference between 2 dreads and 1 land raider??? Nothing, 2 TL lascannon shots, except I can keep a dread in cover and get a 4+. Land Raiders vs. DE is a joke with lance weaponry.

You should try playing DH sometime before you start talking about what they can or can't do or how you play them. 33 psycannon shots will rape rhinos, chimeras, any DE transport, and trukks (the main transports you see)...You use them to open up transports and then hit the infantry inside...Dreads also fire into them...You completely ignore 13+ armor playing DHs.

At 1500pts, if you put 500-750pts into land raiders, you will lose near every game with all the melta/lance weapons now, and a lack of putting out any type of dmg period. I used to run a land raider and 2 dreads at 1500 but found the land raider not doing much for the point sink it costs in that army.

Who in the world puts infantry on foot these days besides Orks??? Every troop squad is in a transport and that's exactly what DHs crush. Do PAGKs need to fear basilisks, land raiders, leman russes, or heavy weapon teams with them parked on back board edges? nope...They won't ever be in range, move them up and now they are wasting rds just to get in range. I worry about vindicators, and even then I'm getting cover saves.

You should try playing against DHs that don't rely on hiding 300pt squads in 250pt land raiders or lists set up to assault with incinerators.

And as I've stated before DHs start to come into their own at 1850...


This is getting way off topic. Are Grey Knights totally underpowered? Absolutely not, then can pump out alot of mid dmg firepower and the same long range firepower a typical marine list would have. Are they a top codex? No way, even successful DHs players will admit that.

Let's just clear one thing up. I'm not attacking the DH codex- everyone already knows that it struggles aginst newer armies- I am just attacking your list.
Firstly Psycannons are not 'raping' anything with a 12AV or higher, it just doesn't work in 5ed trying to score vehicle kills with glancing hits (Just ask a Necron player if you want confirmation lol). So this means you are pretty boned versus the speedy eldar and very powerful Mechguard right off the bat.

Also I also saw that you noted "Who in the world puts infantry on foot these days besides Orks???" Thats a good observation, because everybody knows that pure foot lists struggle against mech lists in 5th because foot lists have much less mobility, are much more fragile and are slower to respond to other mech forces. Yep foot lists sure do put themselves at a disadvantage unless they can bring something else to counter this weakness to the table (Orks bring close to 200 bodies bristling with Power klaws, Footguard bring roughly 70,000 heavy weapons, DH bring.......inducted guard.....oh wait??)

"You completely ignore 13+ armor playing DHs." Wow. just wow.
-Land raider driving straight for my T4 3+ save troops sitting on an objective? IGNORE IT.
-Battle wagon housing Gazzy and his Nobz aimed at yout GK termies? IGNORE IT.
-Leman Russ aimining its cannon at your squishy troops? IGNORE IT.
-Monolith deepstrikes in your lines? IGNORE IT.
-Vindicator going to teach yoor shiny silver dudes the meaning of ID? IGNORE IT.

You cannot ignore the heaviest class of armour in the game. You cannot. How do you bring more antitank? Lascannons and Melta weaponry are your only option unless you want to induct guard. You need more antitank, even if it means sacrifing a few psycannon shots.

Flyinmiata1 wrote: Are Grey Knights totally underpowered? Absolutely not, then can pump out alot of mid dmg firepower and the same long range firepower a typical marine list would have.

When built well, a GK list can go toe to toe with the newer codexes and if not win, atleast make a game of it. Sadly, your list is not well built, and 2 lascannon shots are not what constitutes reliable long range firepower (especially for a marine list).

Sorry for the massed-off-topicness. I'll be quite now.

My last post on this topic and a retort to your post...

What anti tank do DHs have at range? Not much...Dreads or land Raiders...At 1500pts having multiple LRs hurts a list more than it helps...What do you plan on throwing in to make a DH list ranged anti tank??? Nothing til new codex. We all know DHs struggle against high armor mech lists, so why would you you waste your lascannons firing at a 14 armor'd vehicle when the odds to do anything are slim to none....A lone land raider will not win games. It's all the rhinos and troops that do it...That is what you take out to win as DHs.

Most transports are 11/11, 10/10, 12/10. Psycannons have no issues popping through 10/11 armors when you put out that many shots to do it.

Why would you put 6str weapons vs 12 armor??? I'm not a moron...Hit from the sides and the lower armored side.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:My last post on this topic and a retort to your post...

What anti tank do DHs have at range? Not much...Dreads or land Raiders...At 1500pts having multiple LRs hurts a list more than it helps...What do you plan on throwing in to make a DH list ranged anti tank??? Nothing til new codex. We all know DHs struggle against high armor mech lists, so why would you you waste your lascannons firing at a 14 armor'd vehicle when the odds to do anything are slim to none....A lone land raider will not win games. It's all the rhinos and troops that do it...That is what you take out to win as DHs.

Most transports are 11/11, 10/10, 12/10. Psycannons have no issues popping through 10/11 armors when you put out that many shots to do it.

Why would you put 6str weapons vs 12 armor??? I'm not a moron...Hit from the sides and the lower armored side.

Why would they face their lower armoured sides to you? Are your opponents morons? With 6 inch movement on everything in your army I can't see many side shots opening up for you in a game, let alone rear shots (remember side armour on most tranports is equal to their front armour.....) You have one deepstriking unit that may get rear shots, but really if you DS those lone termies into my lines I'm going to thank you then turn them into a lonely smoking crater.

Ok well onto the firepower question:
Multimeltas in Inquisitor retinues do a world of good at higher point levels.
And MOOOAAAARRR strength 8+ weapons. That means 3 heavy support choices packing serious antitank. if you don't like LR's thats fine- I don't have my DH codex on me so correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you select 3 dreadnoughts with ML/LC?? If so that makes your list almost 3 times scarier to armour at longrange.
And ofcourse there are inducted guard. A platoon of infantry brings a lot to any DH army- if you don't want to use them for fluff reasons thats ofcourse understandable.

Now time for some unwanted advice!! For 1500 I would probably recomend losing your 2 weakest links (those lonely Inquisitors that just scream "Kill me, I'm easy!!") and juggling the numbers of PAGK around to open up room for a 3rd dreadnought (with 2 longrange antitank weapons). DH won't win against truly strong lists without inducted guard, but this one change to your HS choices will give the army a lot more bite in a FLGS setting.