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Just got the new codex from the FLGS. Has anyone else had a chance to look it over? What does Dakka think?
My initial thoughts:
1 ungodly fast and horribly fragile (of course)
2 very strong short range anti tank fire power
3 with all those poisoned weapons this codex should have no problem with monstrous creatures in general or thunder wolves in particular.
4 disappointing anti infantry fire power (for the most part)
5 most of the stuff in this book is overpriced
6 kabalite warriors are horrible. wyches are better but not much.


I was really struck by the possibility of running a homonculous/wrack/grotesque army. since pain tokens are one of your big assets as a dark eldar player, every squad and character starting with one, plus the share the pain rule means that the army starts off pretty aggressive and is strong in close combat. additionally you can take the toughness 7 monster that generates pain tokens to get more. Each and every one of those units can take at least one str d6 ap d6 flame thrower. backed up by some heat lances and this is potentially an extremely deadly army - fast, tough (for eldar anyway), awesome short range fire power, awesome anti tank fire power, good in close combat, with rakarth and homonculi carrying all the nasty wargear. This would definitely be my starting point for this army.

So what do you all think?

For point 5, what are you basing this off?

Look at troop Wych 4/4/3/3/1/6/1(3)/8 4++ for 9 points.
Look at an ork Boy 4/2/3/4/1/2(4)/2 6+ for 6.

Overpriced you say?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Just got the new codex from the FLGS. Has anyone else had a chance to look it over? What does Dakka think?
My initial thoughts:
1 ungodly fast and horribly fragile (of course)
2 very strong short range anti tank fire power
3 with all those poisoned weapons this codex should have no problem with monstrous creatures in general or thunder wolves in particular.
4 disappointing anti infantry fire power (for the most part)
5 most of the stuff in this book is overpriced
6 kabalite warriors are horrible. wyches are better but not much.


I was really struck by the possibility of running a homonculous/wrack/grotesque army. since pain tokens are one of your big assets as a dark eldar player, every squad and character starting with one, plus the share the pain rule means that the army starts off pretty aggressive and is strong in close combat. additionally you can take the toughness 7 monster that generates pain tokens to get more. Each and every one of those units can take at least one str d6 ap d6 flame thrower. backed up by some heat lances and this is potentially an extremely deadly army - fast, tough (for eldar anyway), awesome short range fire power, awesome anti tank fire power, good in close combat, with rakarth and homonculi carrying all the nasty wargear. This would definitely be my starting point for this army.

So what do you all think?

Kabalite warriors and wyches function VERY differently. The first are mobile fire support units that can mop up units they reduce to scraps afterwards. The latter are meant to be sent headlong into combat to do as much damage as possible.

Also remember kabalite warriors with splinter racks on their raider will get rerolls shooting their splinter rifles and pistol if I remember correctly. So far what I've seen doesn't seem overpriced. But actually well thought out. I mean Incubi got even more effective for their cost. Just remember what they lack in ability to gun down hordes/blobs they make up for in their ability to pick the enemy apart piece by piece with their ranged and close combat abilities.

I'm very happy with the dex, only a few small things that bug me: Mandrakes are kinda meh, but they aren't the worst thing ever

I wish raiders were a wee bit cheaper. When you put some nifty stuff on raiders you can end up paying a lot for transports.

The other option, the venom, only carries 5 dudes

I always thought DE were supposed to be the mechiest of the mech guys, so shouldn't they have cheap transports?

Me likey the jetbikes and Helions.

I havent seen the dex but while reading about the pain token powers, i thought 'woo! thats really cool.' thats what i thought.

ChrisCP wrote:For point 5, what are you basing this off?

Look at troop Wych 4/4/3/3/1/6/1(3)/8 4++ for 9 points.
Look at an ork Boy 4/2/3/4/1/2(4)/2 6+ for 6.

Overpriced you say?

sure. kabalite warriors, even at 9 points a piece, are junk. you cant even use them as a dark lance platform anymore bc now you have to run a 10 man squad to do it. so you're paying 115 points for a squad that has 1 weapon thats any good. they'll strike first in most combats, but they wont hit very hard and they cant stand up to the counter attack. they're just silly. strait up.

At 10 points a piece wyches arent much better. there's not much difference between init 5 and 6 (you'll go before furious charging marines and some craft world eldar. whoopy). the dont have even the crappy splinter rifle to shoot. you can buy them wargear to make them a little better but that stuff is fairly expensive and none of it ignores armor saves or even rends. the only way to get that is to buy a 20 point upgrade and you can only get it once. wyches are ok but they won't change anything meta-wise.

Reavers same business. yeah they're fast. but then what? Do they have great shooting? no. being able to put those heat lances where you want them is good but it isnt cheap is it? are they good in close combat? hardly. at 22 points a piece I'm just not seeing it.

what else.... razor wings and void ravens are both junk. I cant imagine why anyone would pay 100+ points for those things.... they drop blast templates that dont have low ap and dont ignore cover, their armor is paper thin. they have lances sure but there's got to be a better way to take that stuff.

so those are some examples of what I mean...

I think you are dismissing a lot of stuff out of hand - a tendency I've witnessed in many of your other posts. Although I do agree the codex seems a bit underwhelming at the moment. I'm not sure I'll be able to find a top level competitive build - those Mech IG/SW/BA players seem to take out the paper planes very easier. Darklances are great, but I fear they are actually overpriced. I thought that of the eldar codex too and the DE seem to depend much more on the darklance.

With a light mech spam being some of the strongest lists right now, the darklance struggles to find a target that its better than a standard ML against.

Lexx wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Just got the new codex from the FLGS. Has anyone else had a chance to look it over? What does Dakka think?
My initial thoughts:
1 ungodly fast and horribly fragile (of course)
2 very strong short range anti tank fire power
3 with all those poisoned weapons this codex should have no problem with monstrous creatures in general or thunder wolves in particular.
4 disappointing anti infantry fire power (for the most part)
5 most of the stuff in this book is overpriced
6 kabalite warriors are horrible. wyches are better but not much.


I was really struck by the possibility of running a homonculous/wrack/grotesque army. since pain tokens are one of your big assets as a dark eldar player, every squad and character starting with one, plus the share the pain rule means that the army starts off pretty aggressive and is strong in close combat. additionally you can take the toughness 7 monster that generates pain tokens to get more. Each and every one of those units can take at least one str d6 ap d6 flame thrower. backed up by some heat lances and this is potentially an extremely deadly army - fast, tough (for eldar anyway), awesome short range fire power, awesome anti tank fire power, good in close combat, with rakarth and homonculi carrying all the nasty wargear. This would definitely be my starting point for this army.

So what do you all think?

Kabalite warriors and wyches function VERY differently. The first are mobile fire support units that can mop up units they reduce to scraps afterwards. The latter are meant to be sent headlong into combat to do as much damage as possible.

Also remember kabalite warriors with splinter racks on their raider will get rerolls shooting their splinter rifles and pistol if I remember correctly. So far what I've seen doesn't seem overpriced. But actually well thought out. I mean Incubi got even more effective for their cost. Just remember what they lack in ability to gun down hordes/blobs they make up for in their ability to pick the enemy apart piece by piece with their ranged and close combat abilities.

well I see this idea alot.

"XYZ unit isnt all that great but it doesnt have to be. you have support units. other stuff is supposed to be awesome."

no no no you want the whole army to be made up of hard core bad assed killers. you dont want any 2nd class units in the list, not even one, if you can help it. it's not ok to suck. dont rationalize underperformance. everybody has to be awesome all the time. that's how you make an awesome list and utterly crush your enemies. Again you dont want *support* units. you want units that can kill gak all on their own. If kaballite warriors had 2 or 3 dark lances then yeah, they would be great. but just 1? no. dark lances are good but they're not worth 115 points. both of the units are pretty much ridiculous. Take a homonculous and use wracks as troops. they're my idea of a good unit. dark eldar get better the more pain tokens you have, they come with a pain token. for 10 points a piece you get guys who are better in close combat, can bring 2 random strength random ap flame throwers, are tougher vs. enemy shooting, have better weapon options, etc etc. AF


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asimo77 wrote:I'm very happy with the dex, only a few small things that bug me: Mandrakes are kinda meh, but they aren't the worst thing ever

I wish raiders were a wee bit cheaper. When you put some nifty stuff on raiders you can end up paying a lot for transports.

The other option, the venom, only carries 5 dudes

I always thought DE were supposed to be the mechiest of the mech guys, so shouldn't they have cheap transports?

yeah I agree with all that. mandrakes are junk. I read their profile and I was like WHAT???? they dont do anything but infiltrate??? oh and they can have a crappy shooting attack. blah.


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Ledabot wrote:I havent seen the dex but while reading about the pain token powers, i thought 'woo! thats really cool.' thats what i thought.

yeah. you can actually build your army around generating pain tokens and get alot of those things pretty fast. the army I would make would be a few homonculi, a bunch of wracks, a few kronos parasite engines. have the homonculi carry the crazy war gear that makes dark eldar really shine, take liquifier guns on everything (wracks and homonculi can both carry them.) the spirit weapons on the kronos are all templates with low ap, and the thing makes pain tokens. so with share the pain you'll have a feel no pain furious charge army pretty much from turn 1. hard to beat considering that your basic troopers are 10 points a pop. Tempted to spend the money to make this army myself. I know it will wreck face.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:For point 5, what are you basing this off?

Look at troop Wych 4/4/3/3/1/6/1(3)/8 4++ for 9 points.
Look at an ork Boy 4/2/3/4/1/2(4)/2 6+ for 6.

Overpriced you say?

sure. kabalite warriors, even at 9 points a piece, are junk. you cant even use them as a dark lance platform anymore bc now you have to run a 10 man squad to do it. so you're paying 115 points for a squad that has 1 weapon thats any good. they'll strike first in most combats, but they wont hit very hard and they cant stand up to the counter attack. they're just silly. strait up.

At 10 points a piece wyches arent much better. there's not much difference between init 5 and 6 (you'll go before furious charging marines and some craft world eldar. whoopy). the dont have even the crappy splinter rifle to shoot. you can buy them wargear to make them a little better but that stuff is fairly expensive and none of it ignores armor saves or even rends. the only way to get that is to buy a 20 point upgrade and you can only get it once. wyches are ok but they won't change anything meta-wise.

Reavers same business. yeah they're fast. but then what? Do they have great shooting? no. being able to put those heat lances where you want them is good but it isnt cheap is it? are they good in close combat? hardly. at 22 points a piece I'm just not seeing it.

what else.... razor wings and void ravens are both junk. I cant imagine why anyone would pay 100+ points for those things.... they drop blast templates that dont have low ap and dont ignore cover, their armor is paper thin. they have lances sure but there's got to be a better way to take that stuff.

so those are some examples of what I mean...

Hey, hey, hey, I said wychs Which was for a partial reason of warriors aren't CC obviously.
You managed to ignore the 4++ very well too.
If you want D.lance platforms the you can put 2DL on the board for 141 and 3 for 146.... I don't see the issue....
Reaver jet bikes can turboboost 36" and crank out d6 str4 & d6 Str6 hit - with out engaging in combat, gaining the 3+ cover and then have tow heat lances - this unit only costs 100 points...
Ummm how is AP2 not low?


arrrgh have to do assignment for a bit!!! bbs ^_^

sure they have 4++ saves in cc, but you really just want to wipe them out at init 6. thats much better than a 4++ save, and they cant do that. 100 points for a single heat lance attack? on a unit with 3 wounds? no way. even for a suicide agro player like me thats too thin a margin. I wouldnt mind if the unit had a decent chance to kill the tank once it got there; being fragile wouldnt matter then. but even a heat lance has less than a 1 in 4 chance of killing even wimpy targets like rhinos. 100 points for such a low chance of success? no way.

It is two lances


When has anyone wanted to win in the first round of combat with wyches? You krazy man!

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sure they have 4++ saves in cc, but you really just want to wipe them out at init 6. thats much better than a 4++ save, and they cant do that. 100 points for a single heat lance attack? on a unit with 3 wounds? no way. even for a suicide agro player like me thats too thin a margin. I wouldnt mind if the unit had a decent chance to kill the tank once it got there; being fragile wouldnt matter then. but even a heat lance has less than a 1 in 4 chance of killing even wimpy targets like rhinos. 100 points for such a low chance of success? no way.

Actually the idea with wychs is to kill your opponent in 2 rounds of combat, so that you don't get stuck in the open for shooting. They are just too vulnerable when caught in the open, so ideally a wych unit takes 2 rounds of combat to wipe out the opponent. That's why there are shardnets and that's why they have a 4++. I agree on the reavers though, I can't find a way they are cost efficient for what they bring.

reavers are 1 lance per 3 guys... you're talking about reavers right? mb I do have too high expectations for wyches. idk. I just dont like them.

ChrisCP wrote:It is two lances


When has anyone wanted to win in the first round of combat with wyches? You krazy man!

last edition

Heres what I've so far seen and liked from the list:

Wyches+heamonculi: Start them together in a raider, jump the wyches out with the fnp token (you now have a 4++ with fnp, so even against 10 marines you should be fine). Take squads of 6 so you arent overwhelming your opponent in one round of combat. The heamonculi gets a liquifier and softens up whatever your going to charge or simply suicides to pose as a distraction (hes really there for the fnp wyches anyway)

Wyches can fight terminators/stealers in cc, wracks...umm cannot. Im actually not convinced by the wracks simply based on the fact that they're the same points as troop wyches and dont get any save vs power weapons/rending in CC, why would you take something that cant fight all units when you clearly have an option for something that can? Liquifiers are great, so i take them on the heamonculi instead

3 man trueborn squads with 2 dark lances: buy the raider and youve picked up 3 dark lances at a cost of less than 50 points per lance. Take 2 of these and you have 6 lances for <300 points, add in 3 f-field ravagers and you now have 15 lances at just over 600 points. In an 1850 list youve bought probably enough dedicated long range anti-armor so find 1200 points of whatever you want (4 heamonculi+4x10 wracks in raiders, wyches and heamonculi in raiders, or a combo of both) and profit. And any more raiders you buy are going to increase the number of lances you have. I built an 1850 that had 20 lances, and still had gory amounts of anti infantry between CC(wyches with fnp) and shooting (sliscus+carbine trueborn in a raider with splinter racks)

well the wracks are just a delivery mechanism for the liquifier guns. besides they come with a pain token, so they're furious charge + 3 liquifier guns when accompanied by a homonculus. put 2 power weapons in there and you have a unit that is awesome at short range fire, but probably still 2nd best compared to wyches. hmmmm.... mb I'll give them another look. you're absolutely right, feel no pain and 4++ in close combat means if they arent rocking power weapons the wyches will be fine. hadnt seen that. good point about the kaballite true born too.dark lance spam appears to still be available to people who want to do it.

i completely agree on some of the things you said though, im not sold at all on the razor wing or void raven. IMO theyre alpha strike units, like a vendetta. The vendetta still owns that catagory so while the raven/razorwing is good they dont stand out. And troop warriors suck, no reason to take them over the elite variety that gets more/better anti tank and anti infantry special weapons. Wyches and wracks will always go in a list before regular DE warriors for me anyway.

The other benefit of wyches over wracks was that they can fight thunder hammer termies and not just get creamed. a 4++ is no sure thing but its always better than no save at all. In a playtest earlier this month at my FLGS 3 6 man wyche units with an agoniser in each took down a 10 man assault termy squad with shrike (combat drugs were on +1 Strength, which undoubtedly helped out). It was 5 hammers and 5 lightning claw guys. I killed 6 termies on the charge and he never mustered a sizeable enough retaliation, killing only a wyche or 2 each turn he didnt even wipe a squad before they died out.

I really like the 3 man trueborns with 2 lances. I said it in another thread that they are as good as a 4 man trueborn in a venom with 4 blasters, but also about 20 points cheaper. Making your opponent chose between them in cover and ravagers with f-fields seems to be a win win situation.

thanatos67 wrote:i completely agree on some of the things you said though, im not sold at all on the razor wing or void raven. IMO theyre alpha strike units, like a vendetta. The vendetta still owns that catagory so while the raven/razorwing is good they dont stand out. And troop warriors suck, no reason to take them over the elite variety that gets more/better anti tank and anti infantry special weapons. Wyches and wracks will always go in a list before regular DE warriors for me anyway.

yes. trueborn are waaaayyyyyy better. about the jet fighters. if they had some better weapon options I could see. I mean its ok if your armor 10 as long as you're killing all the stuff that can threaten you the turn you show up. but they dont have enough offense to justify such light armor imo.

The other benefit of wyches over wracks was that they can fight thunder hammer termies and not just get creamed. a 4++ is no sure thing but its always better than no save at all. In a playtest earlier this month at my FLGS 3 6 man wyche units with an agoniser in each took down a 10 man assault termy squad with shrike (combat drugs were on +1 Strength, which undoubtedly helped out). It was 5 hammers and 5 lightning claw guys. I killed 6 termies on the charge and he never mustered a sizeable enough retaliation, killing only a wyche or 2 each turn he didnt even wipe a squad before they died out.

idk.... the 4++ is nice but the lack of power weapons means the terminators will shrug off most of their attacks. I havent play seen this play out personally so you have more experience here. a librarian with null zone should swing that fight the other way. to me a 1st class assault unit needs to have rending at least. I'm pretty disappointed with the assault stuff in this codex in general for just that reason. the incubi are cool. they might make up for it. idk.

I really like the 3 man trueborns with 2 lances. I said it in another thread that they are as good as a 4 man trueborn in a venom with 4 blasters, but also about 20 points cheaper. Making your opponent chose between them in cover and ravagers with f-fields seems to be a win win situation.

yeah. 2nd that. dark eldar should absolutely smoke armored targets. that being said, non-mech armies are getting steadily more playable and I wonder if they'll keep their edge if that trend continues....

ChrisCP wrote:It is *one*lance yes!

When has anyone wanted to win in the first round of combat with wyches? You krazy man!

Must read codex again and again annnnd again!


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thanatos67 wrote:
last edition

Some personal thoughts.

Overall the army looks very fun and extremely interesting, but retaining most of the same weaknesses strengths of the old list, but a little more viable overall. Not quite as much as I'd have hoped for though in terms of competitiveness.

The SC's are whatever for the most part, cool, but haven't really paid much attention to them.

Most of the stuff seems fairly cool, but there are some fairly annoying issues.


Warriors, Raiders, Trueborn, Mandrakes, Reavers and Scourges seem overpriced for what they bring, which is very unfortunate as many of these form the core of the army and had issues in the previous book. Trueborn's saving grace is that they can take a lot of guns, but they pay through the nose for that an an extra attack.



Dark Eldar look like they'll continue to do very well against MEQ's, Monstrous Creatures, elite infantry, and certain hordes. However against mechanized IG and stuff like Horde Orks or Razorlongfangspam they'll have a very difficult time.

yeah the special characters arent very interesting imo. they're just good fighters in close combat. one of them nullifies psychic powers, that's good. rakarth gives out free pain tokens and thats pretty good too. somebody lets you redeploy d3 units. but for the most part there's nothing strategic here, just a few tactical tricks and alot of close combat nastiness. they're good in close combat, but hell they ought to be considering what they cost.

Are we looking at the same army here? Trueborn are one of the most efficient units I can think of.

Fetterkey wrote:Are we looking at the same army here? Trueborn are one of the most efficient units I can think of.

They cost a *lot* for what they do. They can take a lot of guns and have 2A base, but that also sorta splits their role awkwardly. Are they weapons platforms or CC units? Even with 2A base they don't really do CC very well for what they cost, so it's basically wasted points. Compared to an IG Vet squad for instance, they are 5pts more per model (about 71% more) and while better in CC, are costing almost twice as much for 10 Trueborn with 4 Blasters as a unit of 10 Vets with 3 Meltaguns, but generally aren't going to deliver 2x the casualties to the enemy (unless it's a unit of Carnifex's or something). That 5+ save is a giant kick in the balls for the unit, a 4+ would have made all the difference in the world.

I'd have rated them 10pts each honestly, with Warriors at 7. Doesn't sound like much but added up over 30-60 models it makes a huge difference.

When you compare them to similar role or similar cost units like IG vets, SoB's, etc they just seem to lack something.

Why do people keep thinking about warriors and CC? They are not for CC - never ever - they should be in a car doing drive-bys, Taking the focus off your other transports with something that can handle CC happily.... right? Like Wychs are CC... right?

Vaktathi wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Are we looking at the same army here? Trueborn are one of the most efficient units I can think of.

They cost a *lot* for what they do. They can take a lot of guns and have 2A base, but that also sorta splits their role awkwardly. Are they weapons platforms or CC units? Even with 2A base they don't really do CC very well for what they cost, so it's basically wasted points. Compared to an IG Vet squad for instance, they are 5pts more per model (about 71% more) and while better in CC, are costing almost twice as much for 10 Trueborn with 4 Blasters as a unit of 10 Vets with 3 Meltaguns, but generally aren't going to deliver 2x the casualties to the enemy (unless it's a unit of Carnifex's or something). That 5+ save is a giant kick in the balls for the unit, a 4+ would have made all the difference in the world.

I'd have rated them 10pts each honestly, with Warriors at 7. Doesn't sound like much but added up over 30-60 models it makes a huge difference.

When you compare them to similar role or similar cost units like IG vets, SoB's, etc they just seem to lack something.

I disagree, the fact that Trueborn can be taken in small squad sizes while still keeping a large weapon allocation makes them more useful than the above. I essentially see Trueborn as IG vets buffed and in the appropriate slot. 10-man units of Trueborn are indeed inefficient, but that's not really how the unit should be used. You have to play to your advantages.

ChrisCP wrote:Why do people keep thinking about warriors and CC? They are not for CC - never ever - they should be in a car doing drive-bys, Taking the focus off your other transports with something that can handle CC happily.... right? Like Wychs are CC... right?

That seems nice in theory, but if you are doing drive-bys, you can only move 6". That means that in order for it to work you have to start your turn within 18" (6+12 rapid fire). It seems likely that if you are getting that close your paper airplane is going to disappear first to enemy rapid firing. I don't like the idea of drive-bys in a paper airplane. Wychs seem way better in raiders to me than do warriors.

What? We're talking about the squad that takes 3 DL for ~150 right? Why on earth would they be any closer than say 30"?


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Personally I think the new pricing of DLs and the interesting things Talos and stuff do now gives DE a balance of choice between Elite AT and HS AT - something many other codecs simply lack.

ChrisCP wrote:What? We're talking about the squad that takes 3 DL for ~150 right? Why on earth would they be any closer than say 30"?

They can only take two IIRC (for almost the cost of a chimera together), but they can take 4 Blasters, meaning they want to be up close.

I disagree, the fact that Trueborn can be taken in small squad sizes while still keeping a large weapon allocation makes them more useful than the above. I essentially see Trueborn as IG vets buffed and in the appropriate slot. 10-man units of Trueborn are indeed inefficient, but that's not really how the unit should be used. You have to play to your advantages

The problem then is that they turn into one shot suicide units. For 5 Trueborn with Blasters in a double Splintercannon Viper, you can get 10 IG vets in a Chimera with 3 meltaguns and an Autocannon or almost 5 CSM termi's with combi meltas. That doesn't seem quite right, the Trueborn unit just seems too expensive and critical for that role relative to their survivability.

Lance on raider~! 3 guys in a raider means you have a min cost unit which will kill anything (in theory). Now they aren't scoring, but will cause untold amounts of damage if unchecked so, shoot at the raider which will have either a 4/5++ or shoot at the wyches or archon or the Ravagers or beastmaster units etc etc.
I'm viewing it as an expensive ravager (because after all their dirty cheap for their effectivness).

Not good at killing MEQ? Have you seen the number of poison shots they can put out?

Anything not in a vehicle dies, and dies hard. And melta reavers mean vehicles die hard, especially as your basic troops transport kils vehicles fairly well. Oh, and reavers can move 36" meaning side / rear armour shots g'teed even when coming in from reserve. The sheer *speed* of the army, faster than ever, is what will kill people to begin with.

IG Parking Lots rely on you not being able to get behind them, as played according tothe rules they cannot redeploy easily to behind them - they end up not being able to fire for a turn. DE get behind them even coming on from reserve....

The book is HIGH in power, just no obvious spam units. Boohoo. Like the previous book it will take a LOT of skill.

Bombers arent useful? Excuse me? I'm sure Eldar players can tell you the advantages of 36" movement a turn.