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Coming back to fantasy for 8th ed, and I decided to pick up empire. Some questions though:

From the basis of wanting a shooty army, are outriders good? Same for handgunners w/marksmen that have hochlands?

Detachments intrigue me, is the example in the codex viable? That is, say, a unit of greatswords as the parent, and some spears/halb/swords to flank charge, and some missile troops to S&S? also, do the missile troops in this case get to effectively shoot twice? once in the shooting phase, and another in the opponents CC phase? This is probably answered in the big book, but I ordered mine and haven't gotten it yet.

Also, yes/no to a steam tank?

If yes, SP: i can generate up to 10sp (unwounded), correct?

Thanks in advance!

Welcome back to Warhammer! I can address some, but not all of these.

W/regards to the viability of outriders, I'll leave it to others to say- my experience against them is that they can dish out a lot of pain, but can't really take it, which makes them a tough balancing act to use.

As far as handgunners w/hochland marksmen go, I think it's something of an all or nothing. That is, include several or don't worry about it. They have potential for sniping poorly protected wizards, and are helped in this regard by the hammer of sigmar prayer.

Detachments always look good on paper to me, but empire players I've spoken with have mixed feelings. A detachment of 15 is big enough to take some casualties and still cause disruption, which could be crucial for stacking up combat resolution.

Steam tanks are easy to dispose of by some magic spells, but otherwise quite difficult to shift. Barring certain spells (like pit of shades), it should not surrender it's victory points in most games, which makes it quite handy.

Steam tanks can only generate a maximum of 5 steam points if I remember correctly. Their rules are a little different than presented in the army book, what with the conversion to 8th.

An important document to get alongside your army and rulebook are the Errata/FAQ, which are available on the GW website.

I think that about does it? Good luck, and welcome back!

RZ

Thanks for the help. Still trying to figure out a viable 2500 tourney/friendly game list.

Well friendly wise, dont only bring ranged core and 3 cannons and mortars. Boring both for you and your opponent. Get a good mix of melee and range, empire is the jack of all trades after all

Yeah, i was looking at a hitty group of knights with a general, and bringing a unit of greatswords with a WP, and a block of 30 or so swords with a halb. detachment. then the rest shooty. the core choices would scale with points, probably have 3 30man blocks.

another question, arch lector on a war altar, i take it that's a a good choice? I saw the lore of light spells, plus the lector gets prayers. So for magic, him and another level 1 or 2 wizard? I'm not real big on having a magic phase, but i need the dispels.

Popemobile is great when supported. But yes an extra wizard is always useful. Dispel dice are good and all but having a preset bonus is the best form of defense

Sigmundr wrote:Yeah, i was looking at a hitty group of knights with a general, and bringing a unit of greatswords with a WP, and a block of 30 or so swords with a halb. detachment. then the rest shooty. the core choices would scale with points, probably have 3 30man blocks.

What you've got there is pretty solid in terms of having a combat orientated army with the support of some big guns. As for the war alter, it's a pretty solid lord choice. He's usually going to be the general and as he's counted as a large target that's a 18" bubble of troops that can use his leadership which is pretty handy. That and some of those Lore of Light spells can make your basic troops into something that can potentially do some serious damage.

Also in terms of detachments I like them. Usually have units of 30 swordsmen supported with 15 Halberds. 15 is big enough to take some hits and still dish out a turn or 2 of attacks. Don't expect them to be game winners by themselves but it always helps with that initial round of combat.

What about outriders? I know move or fire on the repeaters limits their mobility some, but the 24" range should keep them outta most non-shooty trouble. Also, not having an 8th ed rulebook (got it on order), how does the "sniper" rule change the hochlands? are they still -1 to hit on characters/can fire separately? I was looking at trying to squeeze maybe 3 or 4 in, one on a unit of outriders, and one each for my handgunners. They really only seem effective (on paper) against those pesky but unarmored wizards, where a 4 or 5+ ward isn't as sure a thing as that 1+ armor save on a lord

I personally don't like BS based shooting for Empire...it hasn't worked well for me. Unmodified you will need a 4 to hit, factor in cover, movement and everything else and what you have is too much of a gamble to sink points into. Outriders may have their use as a nuisance unit and the vanguard move is nice but they are almost as expensive as a knight which I have used to much greater effect. Snipers are -1 to hit in addition to any other modifiers and can still fire on separate targets...but that long rifle is pricey and the chances of you hitting anything worthwhile aren't good. In short don't bank on the performance of BS shooters unless you have the favor of the dice gods.

Do NOT get a steam tank . I saw someone play one and it was destoyed by only 6 brettonian knights. It didn't even last for 3 turns !

brother-sergeant Septimus wrote:Do NOT get a steam tank . I saw someone play one and it was destoyed by only 6 brettonian knights. It didn't even last for 3 turns !

This seems like a pretty spectacular chunk of good luck unless one of those knights was a character with heroic killing blow.

I find it hilarious that a bret paladin can kill a steam tank in one hit from his lance and suffer no damage in return, total garbage. The brets need it though.

UNREALPwnage wrote:I find it hilarious that a bret paladin can kill a steam tank in one hit from his lance and suffer no damage in return, total garbage. The brets need it though.

It's not too outrageous really. The brets are brilliant on a charge and against a big metal box I can imagine them to do well.

Imagine running 30 miles an hour into a wall, that is what it would be like running into a steam tank. Solid metal except for the top hatch. I dont know how a wooden lance could hurt, or even go through it.

I think steam tanks are a viable choice, if what you need is a tar pit. Personally I don't take one and I do my tar pitting in other ways (greatswords, 30-packs of swordsmen).

I have found detachments of combat troops very ineffective, because in order to do any real damage, empire troops need hatred backing them up (and any time you add a character such as a priest to a detachment, it can't use the detachment rules).

I would take Pistoliers over outriders. Outriders, given their move-or-shoot rules, are effectively identical to 15 handgunners with a vanguard move (but quite a bit more expensive). Pistoliers can move around, and orbit infantry blocks whittling them down bit by bit while staying out of charge arcs. Zeke is right, though... they can't even tank something like chaos marauders throwing axes, much less a high elf shootline or a bunch of organ guns. In shooting heavy metagames, leave them home.

Let me put in a plug for the 2x-helblaster with master engineer between them combo. Makes them utterly fearsome vs heavy cav and elite infantry (chaos warriors, saurus, dwarfs of all flavors, and especially swordmasters.)

Confirm, steam tanks may only go up to 5 SP. If unwounded, they get 4 SP for free without having to roll, which is normally the way to go.

I have had zero success with knights in 8th edition. You're in a tin can, but you're still a t3 clanrat-on-horse, and every single one you lose hurts your combat power. In this massive-infantry-swarm-heavy metagame, empire will win with our very cheap infantry supported by our sort of cheap characters with hatred.

Best of luck!

Personally, I've had a lot of success with great weapon armed knights...in most games I played they would easily capture mvp. They may only be T3 but have great saves and are 7 move so are good at disruption and getting at those pesky backfield targets. As for outriders, I can't see spending 18 points for a BS of 3...just my personal opinion on Empire marksmanship. I've dumped all BS shooters from my lists after lackluster performances. I completely agree about the power of hatred however! It's a beautiful thing.

Thanks for the replies. I got fixated with outriders before I saw that repeaters were move or fire. With a master engie and the helblasters, that's only for the BS boost, correct? I can't reroll misfires.

I can see what you mean with the BS3. My only experience with BS based shooting was with dwarves in the previous edition, with alot of thunderers, so of course they did rather well consistently. Shooting at long range effectively unmodified was nice.

I take decent blocks of crossbowmen in most of my games, some times switching out for handgunners if I want to take a bunch of long rifles. Crossbowmen are preferred when I’m taking the units as detachments, though, the extra range is worth giving up AP.

Thing is, point for point, missile troops will not kill anything like the same number of enemy troops as war machines, but they definitely have their advantages. Missile troops are a lot more reliable, a mortar might cause a lot of casualties when it scores a hit on a big unit of enemy troops, but it’s effectiveness drops away when dealing with smaller units. On the other hand a block of crossbowmen can keep scoring the same bunch of kills every turn.

The bigger issue, though, is that missile troops are more versatile. Once combat has been joined you will often run out of targets, as everything is in combat. At this point your machines will be left doing nothing, while missile troops can make counter charges – they won’t kill much but taking away the rank bonus can be decisive.

I’ve gotten a lot of value out of missile troop detachments. I don’t play at the most competitive level, so take what I’ve said with a grain of salt, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brother-sergeant Septimus wrote:Do NOT get a steam tank . I saw someone play one and it was destoyed by only 6 brettonian knights. It didn't even last for 3 turns !

A unit is not made viable or non-viable based on a single instance of play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gridge wrote:Personally, I've had a lot of success with great weapon armed knights...in most games I played they would easily capture mvp. They may only be T3 but have great saves and are 7 move so are good at disruption and getting at those pesky backfield targets. As for outriders, I can't see spending 18 points for a BS of 3...

Outriders are BS 4. Their issue is cost and fragility.

Pistoliers are fun, but are unlikely to stop a unit marching in the new edition, and this is a problem. That changes quickly if you can kill the enemy BSB, but that's easier said than done, more often than not.

Ah yes, you are right of course, outriders are indeed BS 4. The move or shoot thing for repeater handguns is still unappealing to me. But at least they will hit what they are shooting at more reliably than most Empire troops.

Gridge wrote:Ah yes, you are right of course, outriders are indeed BS 4. The move or shoot thing for repeater handguns is still unappealing to me. But at least they will hit what they are shooting at more reliably than most Empire troops.

Getting a 12" move before the game starts them in range of something. You just need to have a unit that can intercept enemies that survive the hail of fire.

Don't count on them hitting any better though. BS4, but with a -1 for the multiple shots.
10 outriders is 210 points, giving you 30 shots, hitting on 5's at long range, and you get a 3+ save.
30 handgunners is 240 points, giving you 30 shots, hitting on 5's at long range; you have no save, but can get a standard (outriders cannot) and do have the detachment rule.

The advantage that outriders give you is they only take up 5" wide, where as those handgunners take up 12". The advantage the handgunners have is 20 more wounds; so they are not as vulnerable to shooting or direct damage spells.

With less wounds in the outriders, they have to use that pregame move to get into a good spot; where as handgunners just bunker down and take the hits if they are in a less than ideal location.

I really see it as a wash. They both have their uses, but in terms of raw firepower, I tend to go with plan handgunners, with handgunner detachments; and stick to pistoliers for my mobility.

-Matt

Gridge wrote:Ah yes, you are right of course, outriders are indeed BS 4. The move or shoot thing for repeater handguns is still unappealing to me. But at least they will hit what they are shooting at more reliably than most Empire troops.

Yeah, after playing with outriders for a while I took them apart and made them into pistoliers. If I want something to sit there and keep shooting I'll take handgunners or crossbowmen, where the greater number of wounds in very useful. To actually get some use out of the horse and its mobility, I take pistoliers.