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Alright, I want to preface this, with I've been out of 40k for about a year and a half. Since we just finished up our escalation fantasy league, I decided to dust off my orks and take to a tournament today for 40k. First round, the rust showed and suffered a 15 KP to 14 KP loss to tau, no big deal, it happens. Next round though...I fought against a space wolves list packing 4 thunderwolves, two rune priests with JOTWW, 3 long fangs squads, all with missile launchers, 4 units of grey hunters, 2 in rhinos, 2 in razorbacks, and a unit of 8 scouts. My list was a 4 battlewagon list, with 2 units of 5 lootas as support. Wagons had 1 unit of 10 mixed nobs, 2 units of boyz w/ sluggas (1 had a warboss) and last wagon had a big mek with a unit of 15 burnas.

The game just wasn't even close, the nobz squad tore apart what ever they touched, but the LD 7 proved too much and they ended up falling back from shooting casualties (via JOTWW). I couldn't win any combat, even getting the charge. The 15 burnas and mek charged into a unit of 8 grey hunters, they had one with a wulfen upgrade, the standard, and a power fist. They wiped out 14 burnas before I even got to swing, then the fist dropped the mek.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is, are they the one SM codex that has some kryptonite to our offense? Orks thrive on getting the charge off, and usually it can be close when it's boyz vs regular marines, but grey hunters/blood claws get 3x the amount of attacks a regular marine would get in combat (assuming they pass counter attack). Add to that the D6+2 from the wulfen, and they can put the hurt on us, making our numbers rather meaningless.

Is it just wagon rush is now a sub par list, or is space wolves just our bane? The last time I felt this hopeless to win, was playing 7th edition fantasy, playing against Daemons with my OnG, and even that wasn't as bad as how it felt against the space wolves...

Obviously my rust had a lot to do with my losses (in my last game, I so graciously disembarked every one of my units on the first turn, forgetting I can't waaagh on the first turn, and let him shoot the crap out of my undefended troops), but I'm just curious what a consensus is.

PS - I was just going to get on here and rant about them, but after taking a breather, I decided a more constructive approach will benefit me (and others) more.

I think the reason is you copied list without knowing how it works.

striderx wrote:I think the reason is you copied list without knowing how it works.

I've ran a mech list for about 2 years before I benched it for WHFB, so I'm pretty sure I have a general idea, only changes this time was adding the burnas (which I heard on here were worth giving a shot, so figured I'd try them out) and the nobz just replaced my usual meganob unit.

So no, I didn't just netlist and give it a try, if that was your implication.

EDIT: And one of my big mistakes did lie with that new (burnas) unit. If I would have elected to template the grey hunters instead of charge in, I would have gotten between 30-40 hits on them, netting around 5-7 dead hunters. I realized this right after I finished the assault, and saw how many attacks he was getting.

greenbay924 wrote:The 15 burnas and mek charged into a unit of 8 grey hunters, they had one with a wulfen upgrade, the standard, and a power fist. They wiped out 14 burnas before I even got to swing, then the fist dropped the mek.

I wouldnt do that if I m a veteran ork player.

There is just too little information for us to decide whether you have done things correctly, but based on the limited information given, I would assume NO.
Did anything happen to your wagons along the way. Do they have DeffRolla? Do you have Ghaz (I realize you used Warboss)? Did your lootas do anything to his transport?

List wise, I would say your SW opponent had a very decent list.

Well, the point of the thread wasn't "Hey, what can I do better?" I know I made plenty of mistakes, I made them in all three games as I was slowly getting back into the 40k feel, at one point I measured a distance before declaring shooting, as that's perfectly fine in fantasy, which is what I've been mostly playing.

The reason I created the thread, was to see if maybe SW had an edge on orks in general, just seemed like it from my POV, as even if I didn't make the mistakes I did, I still don't see how I would have won, as for the majority of the game his T-wolf cav were trying to make it into the action.

Maybe it's just wagon rush isn't as effective, as an ork player won't have the numbers, maybe green tide would do better.

Main reason I'm asking, is it seems SW are played by about 25% of the player base around here.

In my humble opinion, SW have an edge on 90% of the codex around, not just orks.
So it's not in particular the SW-Ork disadvantage... ...

Wagon Rush is pretty decent against SW, you just have to really do things right. Contrary to common belief, I do think Ork is not a very forgiving army.

I play Orks and Space Wolves. Generally I would say that Space Wolves have the edge on Orks. Orks really do need to use those numbers...

...and have a little luck. My first Space Wolves game was 1000pts vs Orks, and I lost. Sure, a noob with a new army. But then my opponent made ALL of his saves vs JOTWW and managed to land 6 wounds on my 6 Wolf Guard Terminators, to which I rolled 6 1's for Armour Saves! My Grey Wolves finally got the charge and missed every attack! In all I think I shot down a single DeffKopta all game. With dice like that I stood no chance.

I think its a numbers game, really. I take a build that has a definite MSU focus. The two Green Tide players I regularly go up against seem impossible to crack.

It sounds to me like your oppnent was taking a tournament SW list though. ThunderWolf and Longfang spam is pretty much point and click.

The Orks low Ld is a real issue for them. Most Ork players feel that the revised approach to Ork close combat ability (Furious Charge etc) is inferior to the previous incarnation. Overall, the current Ork codex is still something of a hit-and-miss affair; it feels as though it was rushed, and too many units are clearly uncompetitive. Unfortunately, it was done at the tail end of 4th Edition, and doesn't quite tally with the 5th Edition rules, or the current approach to codex writing. If it came out now, it would have more customisation, more special rules, better special characters and less restrictions. That said, there's nothing really new about this situation. I remember deciding that the 3rd Edition Orks were no match for the 3rd Edition Blood Angels (especially when equipped with jump packs). The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I will be playing against a SW player with a very similar list soon. Hope it goes well. I think il try green tide, with one or two suicide buzzkoptas (he also has a whirlwind)

Your list was fine, the other guys newer codex + min-maxed army list pretty much is what got you. Plus it's those damn light blue marines everyone hates so much.

You can't really do too much in melee vs wolves unless your completely pimping for the job. The damn long fang spam clearly shows the players WAAC attitude.

It's pretty obvious that you failed tactically, rather than strategically (although seriously, you took Slugga Boyz?). You should have known that Space Wolves are nasty in close combat and used your firepower to put him down.

juraigamer wrote:Your list was fine, the other guys newer codex + min-maxed army list pretty much is what got you. Plus it's those damn light blue marines everyone hates so much.

You can't really do too much in melee vs wolves unless your completely pimping for the job. The damn long fang spam clearly shows the players WAAC attitude.

yup. What you dealt with was the standard "I can't think for myself" SW list that I seen in 2 different tournaments in the last 3 months (1 of which I helped judge woo hoo) "MY GOD! FIVE TW CAVALRY IN 3 LISTS??!! WHAT ARE THE ODDS!?!?!" pretty damn good actually. For every SW player who comes with his beloved canine friendly love of wolves as a theme, or loving wolf pelt paint jobs I would bet there are a gakload more who love the missile launcher spam (cheaper AND better than the already cheap-yet-awesome nilla marines), the TW cav with storm shields and 2 wounds who you cant wound distribute like on other units on because they slightly differ in equip... am I getting warm yet? (this is something seriously in need of fixing in GW rules. My units live twice as long because some of them carry a different pistol or a grenade. Yeah whatever.) Don't be too mean though, some of them just had no other paint than wimpy sky blue-grek and AoBR to start with so they proxied grey hunters out of it (yeah its an extra CCW headbutt or something, right?)... getting warmer yet?

How do you play a good space wolves list... um... read the above paragraph. 2x runepriests with JoTWW... I've never ever even heard of anyone overabusing that one either!!! what the heck was that guy thinking using such an obviously game-breaking power on two units!!??!!?? (sarcasto meter has passed 11 at this point)

Your orks are fine man. Your idealism of playing is cool too. You just got stuck with that WAAC SW player guy that appears as about a third of the tourney lists that look more or less just like that. SW outnumbered SM 2/1 in the last two tourneys I was at, and were about 1-2 year ago when I started 5th and SW didn't quite have their new codex established yet. You are fine, they are powergaming munchkins. Next time you see a SW player who isn't spamming long fangs with a TW cav deathstar roaming around, congratulate him for being origional and insult him for being so dumb as to not take the obvious easy route.

SW are one of the top codices right now, but Orks are still quite competitive.

I don't think your build sounds bad. Mostly sounds like it was just lack of knowledge about what SW do/how they work, combined with a substantial dose of luck on your opponent's part.

Grey Hunters ARE a very solid and very cost-effective assault unit, but seriously, even if he passed the Counterattack check and had popped his wolf standard, he only averages 7.8 wounds with the wolfen and the regular guys. Assuming you save 1, that should leave you 8-9 Orks with Burnas attacking back before his fist gets to swing. 24-27 attacks from you is 12-14 hits, 4-5 dead wolves. His powerfist kills (on average) 1 more, maybe 2 if he's a Wolf Guard allocated from Elite. If your Big Mek had a powerklaw you shouldn't lose by much, if at all.

I have had no problems playing against a SW player. I munched his whole army by turn 5 with my BA. I really dont understand why people always complain about them. They aren't THAT tough.

mathhammer averages work on boards with no variation where all assault includes the maximum number of models you can squeeze in. I would much rather squeeze those same number of thwacks from 10 models to squeeze in than from 30, and that doesn't even take into account the diffening odds of a pie plate landing on some of my guys.

use massed burnafire from transport- rips right through almost anything...

loota his rhinos and TW cavs

kilkannon/boomgun can be fun.

Frankly if its a non-imperial codex v a current (5th ed) imperial one the Hoomies have the edge...