Imperial Guard controversial theme?

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**The_Savior**

I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

**The_Savior**

SilverMK2 wrote:There are plenty of black and grey DKoK armies. However, I would stop short of using actual Nazi symbols.

You can certainly hint at the origin (as Wolfenstein does using white, red and black symbols etc) but I would avoid creating a Nazi IG army (though I believe that a few do exist out there - be prepared to defend your choice and get a lot of looks if you ever take them out of the house).

Well at my current FLGS, I talk to them about it, and they think it's cool we have a lot of military fanatics, Marines/Navy/Army service men.

I don't know how it'd work outside of that store, as long as I don't play anyone who'd be offended I think it'd be nice.

**The_Savior**

SilverMK2 wrote:I just don't see the need - in a historical game, fair enough. I just don't really see the need of it in 40K - you can make up any fluff you want. Sure, make them the "master race" or a "pure strain" of Terra, etc, make them a bit evil and sinister, but make up your own symbols etc too. By all means, hint very heavily at their origins.

The problem is that when most people see the symbols, they see the history. If they see a dark grey and black DKoK army they see a DKoK army and are not slapped around the face with history when they are not expecting it.

I get what you mean...

Player: "Oh cool DKoK!"
Me: "No... Nazis."
Player: "Oh... uh... :("

**The_Savior**

Well like I said, I want it to look Nazi-theme because they look cool. Are they bad people, yes... but I like the look.

Am I a Nazi, no, do I like their style yes.

I do know it can go too far, but like I mentioned, it was only for my FLGS, I wouldn't want to go to a GT, RT, or any other tourney and present
Commissar Adolf's Legion.

Also, there are games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, it's historical. Plus, what's the point of playing a game like that if you won't ever be the bad guy?

So maybe Nazi-theme isn't the best, maybe Nazi colors, but different symbols as suggested. I'd probably go with something more Black Metal based then, ram skull, pentagram, but that also gets looks.

But I do like the reverse swastika, I know what it stands for and it'd be nice to show people what's up.

**The_Savior**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't put Swastikas on them, it makes you a tool.

Also DKoK are WW1. It's like saying all Germans are Nazis. So you can offend Germans and Jews at the same time.

Basically, you'll be an ignorant tool.

They're not WW1 guys, they're themed as so.

It's not hard to customize, or make a weird time altered army, where the German army of WW1 meets WW2 or the 40k renegade guard discover the lost uniforms of a fallen army.

**The_Savior**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Seaward wrote:Black and grey is fine. It's a "menacing" color scheme, I guess.

If you had Nazi symbols or anything clearly hinting at them, I'd assume you were a supremacist or a sympathizer. I don't know a lot of people who slap Nazi imagery on things 'cause it "looks cool," nor do I care to. Your motives might be as pure as the driven snow, but honestly, I doubt a lot of people would bother to find out before making a call on them.

^^

What the man said.

How is it possible that out of all of history people can't find something a bit less controversial than Nazi Germany on which to base their army colour scheme?

I get what you mean, I think it's just a bad coincidence, that Nazi colors, are also what I find cool colors to theme an army on.

**The_Savior**

Seaward wrote:
The_Savior wrote:Well like I said, I want it to look Nazi-theme because they look cool. Are they bad people, yes... but I like the look.

Am I a Nazi, no, do I like their style yes.

As I said above, if I'm honest, I think most people will not wait to find out your motivations before making a judgment call about the guy playing an army painted like that. I wouldn't.

Also, there are games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, it's historical. Plus, what's the point of playing a game like that if you won't ever be the bad guy?

There are indeed games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, because they're historical. Flames of War springs to mind. Warhammer 40K isn't one of them. Being set far in the future sort of nixes the possibility of being considered historical.

As for the point of playing a game if you won't ever be the bad guy? Maybe you should look into the recent Medal of Honor multiplayer controversy.

Let me put it this way; if your neighbor painted up his convertible to look like one of those Nazi staff cars, complete with swastikas - reversed or not - because he thought they looked cool, do you think the neighborhood would assume he did it because he thought it looked cool, or because he was all about Nazi ideology? I think just about everyone in the world would conclude it was the latter. It's a symbol, and an overall look, charged with a great deal of significance, and it means a lot to a lot of people - all of it bad. It's hard to be unaware of this, and choosing to go with it no matter how much you find the aesthetics appealing would be an...interesting call, to say the least.

True, true, but I'd laugh to see my Hispanic grandpa drive a Nazi vehcile (He's my neighbor.)

I think I'd paint them the colors, and avoid the symbols.

**The_Savior**

I just asked the guys at the shop what they thought.

I even asked the two players with the highest seniority, and one is in the Navy.

I was told that they thought it'd be nice, one said he didn't mind it might offend people but no one around here.

The Navy guy thought it'd be nice to see, and he doesn't even see a problem with it, and actually supported it, because like he said, it's my army you DO what you WANT. Also he said a guy back in Seattle did it too, and everyone thought it was cool.

Also, another point, it's kind of hard for a Hispanic guy like me to put a Nazi army down and say I am the Master Race.

**The_Savior**

manoknok wrote:@ The Savior. Just to throw in my two cents.

1. I would recommend not painting swastikas...I think in a lot of places especially in Europe, as we experienced Hitler, people would either think you were a Nancy or, not even think and just have a go at you. These sort of things can come back to haunt you. Imagine your boss comes round for tea, and see lots of little armed men with swastikas. Oh oh.

2. I do know what you mean though about the style...so what about considering the Thule Society. Its weird. Cultish. It shows you've thought about what you are doing and has a relatively uncontroversial downward sword as an emblem in its pre-Nazification emblem. Also, they allow a great deal of conversion potential as they were said to have created flying saucers. Think Hell Boy. That Clockwork Assassin was a Nancy in the Thule Soc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ FYI a lot of the Nancy leadership fled to Latin American after the war due to the right wing/anti communist views and they used their skills to build up the military which led to the rise of people like Pinochet. So you might be Hispanic (European or Latin American?) (incidentally fascist Franco dictator of Spain, crappy friend of Hitler, Guernica, Spanish Civil War??? Wait. Now that would be an awesome theme for a IG army the Republicans!) but there is still a major connection to the 3rd Reich in either form of Hispanic culture...saying that the US and the USSR both absorbed technocrats and scientists into their military space programs...so...go figure.

Please elaborate as this has caught my attention.

Also wasn't that guy with blade gauntlets and goggles from Hellboy a Nazi or something?

**The_Savior**

manoknok wrote:Hi Yes,

He was a Nazi but he was primarily part of the Thule Society (I think that is why he was with Rasputin and not Hitler...or something like that...haven't seen it in ages...).

Thule Society...basically they believed in this ancient civilisation the Greco-Roman cartographers called 'Ultima Thule' meaning literally 'Edge of the world' or 'Extreme North'.
Bearing in mind that at around the 1920s Occultism was huge in Europe (See Rasputin in 1917) the Thule Society grew up actually believing that this place existed as a lost land mass called Hyperborea and that the German people where descended from there....thats why they have this belief that the aryan people were born out of ice.

I mean its kind of hard to explain in a blog post - but these guys were total nut jobs. Not only because they believed this, but they believed that Hitler was 'the savior of the Germanic people' (though I don't think they agreed on his views on Jews, just on the masterrace could be wrong). They also thought, as one does, that German people were born out of ice. That the world was hollow (another stupid conspiracy has Hitler fleeing with the Thule Society to Hyperborea where they had built a tunnel and now secretly live underground...)...

Oh. And they also believed in Aliens. Tried to build weird magneticly powered flying saucers...

Not sure if that is what you meant...or if you meant about Nazi war criminals influencing latin america. Some are still actively searched there I think.

FYI...Thule clothing? Named after this idea of ultimate north civilisation indirectly.

So wouldn't in the end I'd still be Nazi's but with different symbols?

**The_Savior**

Seaward wrote:
The_Savior wrote:I just asked the guys at the shop what they thought.

I even asked the two players with the highest seniority, and one is in the Navy.

I was told that they thought it'd be nice, one said he didn't mind it might offend people but no one around here.

The Navy guy thought it'd be nice to see, and he doesn't even see a problem with it, and actually supported it, because like he said, it's my army you DO what you WANT. Also he said a guy back in Seattle did it too, and everyone thought it was cool.

Also, another point, it's kind of hard for a Hispanic guy like me to put a Nazi army down and say I am the Master Race.

You live near Corpus Christi, I presume?

Don't stalk me D:

**The_Savior**

Seaward wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
Don't stalk me D:

It's the only logical place to find active duty Navy in Texas.

I would think there would be more.

But yes, I do live in that area, not Corpus, but in that area.

**The_Savior**

I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

**The_Savior**

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

**The_Savior**

Viktor von Domm wrote:and i do dare. i think that some ideas are not good for thinking through. i think you will learn. every learning process is hard. your will be obiosly be abit harder. as you dont understand easyly. and notz only am i german but i have in my family line some poor fellas how have just in time been recued from there very terminal last shower. and if you don´t understand that to consult your history books. they might give you an insight or maybe not.

vik

You're telling me to understand what choice I am making.

Yet I'm telling you I like the look, not their cause.

Spoiler:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

If you paint your army with swastikas on it it's like wearing a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews". You are fully in your right to wear that T-Shirt. You may even tell me that its not what the shirt says that you like, you just like the colour. Maybe you even believe that. The point is you're going out with a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews" just be aware of it.

I don't hate Jews. But I know what you're saying.

**The_Savior**

Viktor von Domm wrote:maybe it´s a language problem here but by your last post i couldnt understand your position...

what should your "spoiler" (which sound highly like something made up) achieve?

vik

Unless you know exactly everything that happened, don't act like you do.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:why did you use spoilers on historical fact? (questionable accuracy though it may be).

Once again, that WW2 thing was real y'know.

Also, the historical thing is off-topic is why.

I know this real, what are you trying to get at that with me?

This is about me painting.

**The_Savior**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Try for the Galactic Empire approach, i.e. make them Nazi-like without actually being Nazis. That worked great for Star Wars, we got us a load of iconic bad guys without making them obviously Nazis. Subtle can be just as cool as overt, if it's done right.
Hope that helped.

I like that idea.

@ Domm and Kamikazie
Yeah, a brown skinned Nazi, makes sense.

**The_Savior**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

I'm talking about you saying I'm a Nazi.

Stop getting worked up about this, all I ever see here on Dakka is...

You're tool, idiot, child, racists, blah.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and point fingers.

Sorry, that I voice an idea and ask for opinions. But now it turns into a slander fest, based upon my character.

**The_Savior**

Viktor von Domm wrote:i wish you all the luck in the world to grow up. the world can be a little hard to people who don´t learn fast enough.
widom isn´t eraned easy... (not that i´m near that by a ong shot, mind you).

well this made my really sleepy, thanks for the support Kamikaze,

vik

Or it could be that I don't care what you think is offensive? We didn't rule that out. But goodnight Vik, thanks for your input and words of wisdom.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

I'm talking about you saying I'm a Nazi.

Stop getting worked up about this, all I ever see here on Dakka is...

You're tool, idiot, child, racists, blah.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and point fingers.

Sorry, that I voice an idea and ask for opinions. But now it turns into a slander fest, based upon my character.

Oh is this bothering you? Well then painting swastikas on your toy soldiers is a great idea.

No, it doesn't bother me, I think it's sad, that everyone wants to be the hero. No one wants to flamed, and everyone wants to be the pyro behind the work.

I do think it's a great idea to do it, because I want to do it. Doesn't mean I plan on saying I'm a Nazi.

If I was a Nazi, and truly hated Jews and the whole nine yards, you really think I would ask for peoples' opinions?

**The_Savior**

So, I guess we're done now.

Nazi is a bad idea to some.

**The_Savior**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never called you a Nazi I said "However, painting swastikas on them, is at best, extremely tacky and at worst, declaring yourself a Nazi. "

In other words if you paint them like that I think you'll regret it in a few years....unless you are a neo-nazi. Then you'll enjoy them forever.

I had an alternative, for the symbols. I thought of making the vehicles Iron Cross and if I had the time, just arm bands made of cloth for symbols.

So I could remove them if needed, or magnetized arms.

**The_Savior**

Seaward wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
So, I guess we're done now.

Nazi is a bad idea to some.

Only to some?

I think you'll find that the numbers in support of it are a lot smaller than you think, and predominantly under the age of 20.

Yeah... okay.

**The_Savior**

juraigamer wrote:As far as I can tell there is no restriction on how you paint models you paid for.

Therefore if you have a creative idea, go with it.

People need to see this for what it really is, models that fit the theme, and a themed army. Tiny little plastic men. In costume. 40k isn't real, the tiny men aren't real, hell the battle isn't real.

This would be like me using tallarn imperial guard and saying it's al qaeda or something. Something I've thought about doing (damn the expensiveness of doing so!)

Use your rights in freedom of speech and expression, and do not fear doing so. So long as you aren't trying to convert people or anything infringing upon their rights, there is no problem.

Do it and be proud.

Paid for by the paint-yo-shiet how you want of America.

Thanks.

**The_Savior**

Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

**The_Savior**

punkow wrote:Nazi IG? No... God no...
Why don't you just get the colour scheme and style? DKK are made this way... But absolutely avoid nazi simbols...
Maybe the jewish player you meet at your next tournament would be rightly offended, and the same shoul be said also of non-jewish people.

But I have to give my experience...
I'm painting Nazi Orks
Yes... they are nazi orks, with nobz dressed like gestapo, and a stupid warboss dressed a la hermann goering.
They fight against lesser races to gain the vital space for the Grobwaaghland (aka Grosdeutchland)

They're orribly trash, The total idiocy of nazi ideology is well represented by the fact it is transposed in brutish green stupid aliens.
But I absolutely avoid true nazi symbols (I use the two X that have been the party symbol in Charlie chaplin's the great dictator)

Well if you used the Nazi stormboyz that'd look cool too.

Also I wouldn't use a Nazi symbol on Orks, I'd maybe make and Ork-esque Nazzy Symbol like bones or snakes not sure.

**The_Savior**

Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

**The_Savior**

SilverMK2 wrote:
The_Savior wrote:If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Not going to answer for Fraz, however, if someone painted a GD quality army of fully converted, highly detailed Nazi IG I would quite possibly admire the work that went into it, and the techniques that were used. However, I would not think that it was any more a good idea to do or use than someone who had a black primed IG army with giant Nazi symbols painted all over it...

And as has been pointed out before, no matter how much work you put in and how good it looks, it still does not really have a place in 40K. The vast majority of people who have Nazi themed anything (outside of historical games etc) are, to my experience, likely to be young fools looking to get a reaction by shocking people at how "daring" they are being.

Or collectors, we can't forget about those people.

What's with this shock value thing? I'm pretty sure it isn't that shocking after the (insert number here) time.

Offensive? Yes. Quite as shocking? No.

But everyone has mixed opinions.

**The_Savior**

Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Is it just greys or blacks-great
If its got little Nazi symbols on it I'd call them a pathetic human being and vermin not fit to waste oxygen. They're like little Neo Nazis except they are losers who play with toy soldiers and want to shock people. In essence they are a zit on the butt of life. I can take solace though in that their lives would be truly so pathetic as to almost engender sympathy. Not. Then I'd point and laugh and laugh and laugh.

So if I painted an army based off my culture, would it be wrong?

Or Chaos with pentagrams, ram's head, and etc?

I'm just saying this, if it's a person's belief, you have no right to judge them based on that since it'd be wrong of course.

That's why things like the KKK are still around.

**The_Savior**

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm perfectly allowed to judge you once you've made your beliefs clear. Saying otherwise is like that French law which said that it's discrimination to selectively hire someone on the basis that they can actually do the job.

You're right. Painting Nazi symbols on IG...once I see that I can't judge you. However, once I ask you WTF is up with that, and you say: 'Oh. I just thought it looked cool.' Then I have just as much right to judge you as if you had said: 'I think they were totally awesome and had the right ideas.'

Edit: I personally would not be extremely offended. But I have friends who have lost relatives in the Nazi camps. They would be offended. Are they just being 'sensitive'? I'm perfectly alright with the colors. That's how DKoK are MEANT to look. Hell, I'd even be alright with the double lightning bolt, just because there isn't as much meaning tied to that symbol. It's just the swastika that we're taking specific trouble with.

That's why I asked the people around here who served in military, and the ones who I know are of European descent.

To make sure in my area it didn't affect anyone, if I made this army, I'm sure I wouldn't go and bring it outside of the shop.

My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.

@Frazz

No by culture, I meant the whole Mexican army/ Spaniard / and Native American thing. That's in an earlier post.

**The_Savior**

Frazzled wrote:
My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.
****How is it going to be historically accurate when you're talking guys with lasers again?
@Frazz

No by culture, I meant the whole Mexican army/ Spaniard / and Native American thing. That's in an earlier post.
****How would that be bad? I'm visualizing a Aztec Guard force of Jaguar and Eagle Warriors as Epic cool. Pancho Villa era dressed out Orks-perfect. These are not issues.
Spanish conquistador might draw some looks, but that style without the symbolism would be fine.

But what would make Pancho Villa and all them fine?

I know a few people down here, who hate to know they were part of that.

Also, regardless of lasers, players have an imagination. I can pretend, I'm in a WW2 battle, however whenever a SM or Tyranid shows up that might be different. But then that makes me think of Wolfenstein.