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I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

There are plenty of black and grey DKoK armies. However, I would stop short of using actual Nazi symbols.

You can certainly hint at the origin (as Wolfenstein does using white, red and black symbols etc) but I would avoid creating a Nazi IG army (though I believe that a few do exist out there - be prepared to defend your choice and get a lot of looks if you ever take them out of the house).

SilverMK2 wrote:There are plenty of black and grey DKoK armies. However, I would stop short of using actual Nazi symbols.

You can certainly hint at the origin (as Wolfenstein does using white, red and black symbols etc) but I would avoid creating a Nazi IG army (though I believe that a few do exist out there - be prepared to defend your choice and get a lot of looks if you ever take them out of the house).

Well at my current FLGS, I talk to them about it, and they think it's cool we have a lot of military fanatics, Marines/Navy/Army service men.

I don't know how it'd work outside of that store, as long as I don't play anyone who'd be offended I think it'd be nice.

I just don't see the need - in a historical game, fair enough. I just don't really see the need of it in 40K - you can make up any fluff you want. Sure, make them the "master race" or a "pure strain" of Terra, etc, make them a bit evil and sinister, but make up your own symbols etc too. By all means, hint very heavily at their origins.

The problem is that when most people see the symbols, they see the history. If they see a dark grey and black DKoK army they see a DKoK army and are not slapped around the face with history when they are not expecting it.

SilverMK2 wrote:I just don't see the need - in a historical game, fair enough. I just don't really see the need of it in 40K - you can make up any fluff you want. Sure, make them the "master race" or a "pure strain" of Terra, etc, make them a bit evil and sinister, but make up your own symbols etc too. By all means, hint very heavily at their origins.

The problem is that when most people see the symbols, they see the history. If they see a dark grey and black DKoK army they see a DKoK army and are not slapped around the face with history when they are not expecting it.

I get what you mean...

Player: "Oh cool DKoK!"
Me: "No... Nazis."
Player: "Oh... uh... :("

The colors are fine.

But actual nazi symbols? That's just stupid.

The Iron Cross, maybe-- it's similar to the symbol used by a certain Astartes chapter after all. But the swastika really has no place.

I would skip the nazi icons. IIRC Steel Legion have lightning bolts on their shoulders. When I had some of those guys I painted them in grayish/black and just highlighted the lightning bolt with yellow.

Also, IIRC, the lightning bolt is a symbol for the "Blitzkrieg" style of war, or lightning war. Where they bomb the enemy terribly into terror.

If you want to relater them to nazi's I think your best bet would simply be to paint the lightning bolt yellow. But no other icons.

Use red white and black. Maybe use oak leave patterns.
Snakes are suitably evil and crossed lightning bolts could be used.

there are many ways to give your force the air of Teutonic supremacy and menace without resorting to the usual, suspect, ideas.

Skip the swastika altogether, it isn't needed. Honestly, more than anything, having to discuss why you use Nazi symbology will detract from any cool scheme you do come up with.

I would not play with someone who had a seriously nazi themed 40k army. Honestly, their presence might be enough to get me to leave the group/store. No need to bring up nazis outside of a historical context unless it is to mock them.

Using a nice looking colour scheme despite its use by Nazi Germany is fine. Using an aspect of the colour scheme because it was used by Nazi Germany would mark you as an idiot. The only reason you even contemplated using the swastika as part of your proposed colour scheme is because the Nazis did it, which isn't much of a reason at all when you're making an army fighting for the Imperium of Mankind, not Nazi Germany.

That said, leaving a group or store just because some idiot did something stupid but completely harmless would also mark you as an idiot.

As a foil to a lot of the other people here, while I wouldn't use the theme myself, I certainly wouldn't say that you using a Nazi symbol or theme marks you as an idiot, stupid, bigot, or any other such thing.

Being a Jew myself, I would say that I would almost certainly want to play and grind your army to dust or do my best to do so.

If a person chooses not to play you, that's fine and it's their choice.

If a person heckles your and tries to get in your face about it, simply dismiss them and move on. Artistic imagery is a personal choice. If the people here playing the role of your critic were the mental majority, we as a society would be robbed of some pretty good movies in the very least.

Hell, in my opinion, Space Marines are little more than militant catholic space Nazis.

Just use the reverse of the swastika then you stand for everything it was originally intended for! a symbol of good luck, and possibly of fertility and regeneration.
Just because the nazis ruined it for the average bloke doesn't mean you can't do it.. Just be prepared to explain yourself and possibly carry printouts of the history of the swastika. Then proceed to call X person an uninformed bigot. case closed

Thunderfrog wrote:If the people here playing the role of your critic were the mental majority, we as a society would be robbed of some pretty good movies in the very least.

I don't think that quite fits - movies, historical games, etc - they are fine. Plenty of people play various parts of the German armed forces in Flames of War, etc. I'd be happy to play against them or even play as the Germans myself. Movies again are fine - you have a movie about Germany during the war there are bound to be Nazi images etc contained within it, perhaps even graphic depictions of silly lip hair, strange walks and so on.

The point is that one expects such things in movies, books, historical games etc.

In a game such as Warhammer 40k, which has little to no connection to "reality" and where the "real world" merely influences, a full blown "Nazi" army is not expected. As I suggested and others also commented on - you are more than welcome to base your stuff on Nazi imagery, even base your background on it. The problem comes when you plop down commander Adolf and screen your army with penal legion "counts as" concentration camp victims and have everything painted with Nazi symbols etc.

I have no doubt that even the smallest bit of Nazi iconography would cause raised eyebrows.

Lots of young boys go through a "Nazi" phase and at best such an army would be considered as something like that, at worst it could be seen as a deliberate way of insulting people/etc.

Not knowing the OP, I can't really say anything on this score, but in general I would be disinclined to play against someone who I had heard/seen using a Nazi themed 40k army. As I said - it is not needed in this setting and, from my experience, either a sign of immaturity and a desire to "shock", or some deeper seated issue.

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.
Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)
So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)
But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.
I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.
My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.
What does dakka think?

Black and Grey is fine as is the Iron Cross.

Some people will get stroppy over swastikas, SS markings and even red armbands. Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:Using a nice looking colour scheme despite its use by Nazi Germany is fine. Using an aspect of the colour scheme because it was used by Nazi Germany would mark you as an idiot.

You know, there is a reason that lots of people collect German WW2 uniforms, etc - they were pretty cool. We certainly didn't hire big name fashion designers for our kit!

Scott-S6 wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.
Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)
So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)
But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.
I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.
My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.
What does dakka think?

Black and Grey is fine as is the Iron Cross.

Some people will get stroppy over swastikas, SS markings and even red armbands. Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Agreed that black/grey and even iron crosses are acceptable. As the iron cross wasn't a Nazi symbol. If you don't want the odd funny look I'd shy away from usage of red armbands and their signature symbols. Using imperial eagles and skulls works though. Far flung future feudalism/fascism is fine. Real life not! Death Korps of Krieg are an amazing set of models. But aren't purely German WW2 in their style. More of an amalgamation of them and some Russian elements also.

Even then, the DKoK is much more WWI Germany than WWII. Closest we have to WWII Germany would be the Armageddon Panzergrena--I mean...Steel Legion. But still, paint them dark colors, give them Teutonic imagery, armbands too, but please....no giant swastikas on the LRBTs. I'd play you....but it'd feel kind of awkward. Not to mention a lot of people WILL be offended. Trust me, I've had personal experience with this involving a Soviet flag, 4th of July, and a summer course at Georgetown.

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

I think you should do it. Have someone else film it when you bring the army into a tournament or store. Ask everyone what they think. Be sure to post it on youtube. But I'm sure nothing could possible go wrong.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

I think you should do it. Have someone else film it when you bring the army into a tournament or store. Ask everyone what they think. Be sure to post it on youtube. But I'm sure nothing could possible go wrong.

Oh frazzled..

I would say its a matter of context. In historic games you're playing with people who understand these things to be historic. When you play 40k or Warhammer, you're playing with people who have actively chosen a game that is fictional and intended for a younger audiance. Those two things insist on a more stringent departure from reality. That violence and cruelty and all the stuff written in the fluff is ok, because by being fantasy it is that much harder for it to have the emotional ties that realism has that would offend. While a historic game, players have gone into it with a reasonable expectation of facts. That preparedness and general heighted maturity level make the use of "controversial" symbols acceptable in one and not the other.

There's the pschological implications of the Swastika too. Back to just when WW2 ended there were so many people traumatized by the event that they could not look at the swastika without getting horrible flashbacks. Dont know if any of them are still around now (the War was quite a bit far back) but it certainly goes beyond just being offensive. DKoK is basically WW2 Germans, and their colors are just fine and you should probably go with them. Trying to actually make them into the actual Nazis will probably get alot of middle fingers coming your way.

I think though the context plays into the psychology. Someone playing a historic game would be prepared to see a Swastika, while someone playing 40k is more likely to be someone avoiding such imagery. Its an aspect of consent. You play one game you're consenting to a particular possibility, while playing the other you are not. Just like when you go and see an "R" rated movie (or the equivalent), you don't get a right to complain about boobs and blood.

Paint them black/grey. Ok that's cool.

But NO swastikas. The Steel Legion basically are German infantry anyways.

And you will be golden.

revackey wrote:Also, IIRC, the lightning bolt is a symbol for the "Blitzkrieg" style of war, or lightning war. Where they bomb the enemy terribly into terror.

The Blitz was the name for the bombing campain of Britain.
Blitzkrieg is just lightning fast warfare basically using light to medium tanks and medium bombers and not entrenching.

I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

Steel Legion was based on WW1 Germans. DKoK are the WW2 ones.

EDIT: In some cases even only accurate Historical Recreations are allowed to use the Swastika. Even games in Germany are censored from having the Swastika, even if the game is said to be set in WW2.

If and when some one says something just go 'Huh, really? I saw some DKOK/Steel Legion painted like this on the Internet and it looked cool. I had no idea it had anythink to do with Nazis.' If they choose not to play you, so be it.

Smarteye wrote:I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

I thought DKoK were based more on the French.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Smarteye wrote:I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

I thought DKoK were based more on the French.

They are a mix of French and German WWI troops with elements of WWII German soldiers. To my mind at least.

Germans- look at thier names!

I collect steel legion AND death korps (my only 2 guard armies) and they are epic. Steel legion have the best SC guardsman (got him), the best fluff, The fortress of arrogance (got it), the iron saint (got it) and gas masks. Only downside is, thier metal and thier pricey.

DKoK are incredably detailed models, the best-looking commissars ever, and the best rules. They get the guard equivalent of a Drop pod (hades breaching drill), but units can arrive the turn after as well, and when the Drill surfaces, it inflicts a S10, 5" blast hit on anything over where it turned up. In the turns anfter, it has a 3" blast meltagun and when it rams, it counts as S10. the SRs are epic, but they are a bit pricey. I'm going for a Engineers list (basically IG vets w/ carapace armour & SG's standard), with 6 engineer squads, 6 hades breaching drills, CCS, and Genral-commissar (basically a Lord commissar).
And they get the added bonus of having super-heavies in regular 40k! Yes, I know!
Thier rules are on a FW PDF file:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf
By all means, go DKoK.
Check out my DKoK army list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323749.page

With the pointed helmets and gas masks, not to mention the whole 'smash them into tiny bits with artillery' mentality, I feel safe in calling the DKoK a WWI army. Like the Catachans, they're not a specific faction, but more a general approximation of that period in history.

The Steel Legion are Panzergrenadiers, basically. Just like the Mordians are Prussians, and Valhallans are the Red Army.