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 godardc wrote:
Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?

Taking Guilliman is your best bet, in my last game against Necron he killed T-Ctan (2 lucky 6s to wound rolled followed by 5 and 6 so I got 6 mortal wound in addition to other damage), a full squad of Destroyers and the remaining 2 Wraiths, in addition to his buff to devastators and TFC, which make sure I only lost by the 1st blood under the situation that my opponent stole the initiative. But if you don't like it. Take Calgar + Lieutenant + Ancient relic banner and 2 big blob of fully upgraded Devastators, one with 4 Missile Launcher (or 3 LC and 1 ML) the other with 3 PC and 1 HB. Aim the Krak missiles against the Wraith, Destroyers, Plasma against Arks and Barges. Basically all Necron non-infantry unit along with a good whole bunch of heavy lifting infantries have fly. Rememeber to make good use of those stratagems, they are Emperor sent for SM to have a hope combatting Necrons. Also, take some Librarians, Necron have no psychic defence, Marine psychic power pale against Daemon / Eldar / Tyranids, but can be brutal against Necron or Tau. If they have Wraiths / Ctans getting into your line, and you are not dead yet, move up your Tigirius and pop Null Zone then you can kill them with volleys of Krak missiles / plasma fire.

Remember to take long range weaponary and deploy your units far back as possible. Necrons are short range in general so they need to come to you, and their trickery would only let a couple footsloging units to be "in your face" quick and many of the component needed to perform those trickery (like Deceiver Ctan, Night Scythe, Monolith) are very expensive. So your main focus can be the fast moving Destroyers and / or Wraiths and / or Tombblades, preferrably destroyers first because they are vunerable to AP-4/3/2 weapons, and being more dangerous to marines from mid-range away, while Wraiths need MW to reliably put down. If they take Wraiths, be careful on your bubble warp, you need to ensure they cannot phase through your screen to reach the juicy devastator / tanks behind.

 Primark G wrote:

I’ve never said Vertus Praetors are inferior to Allarus. It’s just you don’t understand why Allarus are good.

Allarus have no Allure

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH
>Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former

Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...

Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.

I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.

You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.

I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.

I did not miss the point, I merely pointed out another one.

But hey, why discuss how abilities might be different when we can just focus on bashing other posters? Really, there's probably a more productive way to go about it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH
>Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former

Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...

Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.

I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.

You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.

I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.

I did not miss the point, I merely pointed out another one.

But hey, why discuss how abilities might be different when we can just focus on bashing other posters? Really, there's probably a more productive way to go about it.

I mean, the dude is one of the worst contributors to the Custodes thread so...

-1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.

 Primark G wrote:
-1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.

Here's the thing though: it hardly ever happens. When people charge they're charging to kill so you don't fall back anyway.

That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?

You're at least running Calgar right?

Is it Quantum Shield spam or Immortal spam or Wraith spam or Destroyer Spam? I need more info as I am primarily a Necron player.

I don't think he is gonna spam, he has a bit of all (I know he has about 300 pts of destroyers, 330 od wraiths, 20 immortals, the Deceiver, 10 lychaguards and a lord with the tp relic) !
Thanks for the tips guys !

@ insectum - Yeah often it’s not case for me either. Many times I’ve finished off enemy units by falling back and shooting them. Shooting is overall more powerful this edition.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?

You're at least running Calgar right?

Is it Quantum Shield spam or Immortal spam or Wraith spam or Destroyer Spam? I need more info as I am primarily a Necron player.

I don't think he is gonna spam, he has a bit of all (I know he has about 300 pts of destroyers, 330 od wraiths, 20 immortals, the Deceiver, 10 lychaguards and a lord with the tp relic) !
Thanks for the tips guys !

The best counter to Destroyers and Wraiths is the Autocannon provided by the Predator. Otherwise use an extra squad of Scouts with those minimum three to stop Deep Strike shenanigans (to an extent) from Destroyers and the Veil and so on.

Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.

Define "hostage".

It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.

Martel732 wrote:
It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.

I agree with this. If anything non-fly in Space Marine army got charged by full strength hordes Genestealers, Hormagants or Ork greentide. It generally have 2 consequences, 1 is wiped outright, 2 is being "taken hostage" so those hordes can wipe them out in your turn to avoid being shot by you, and charge into your next unit back in their turn. You will generally hope the 1st consequence to occur.

However, if what charges you is a trukk, Rhino, Eldar Wave Serpent or Harlequin Skyweaver. Then fall back and shoot is much more valuable

It's almost like i play an assault chapter. The only thing um have that i care about is bobby g.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.

Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.


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Martel732 wrote:
Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.

Ultras are on shelves.

So when you take casualties, kill who they surrounded? Just make sure you're positioned so they can only surround a few guys?

Bharring wrote:
So when you take casualties, kill who they surrounded? Just make sure you're positioned so they can only surround a few guys?

yeah - that can work but if you are in combat with like 25+ hormas - everyone is surrounded because they have no problem piling in behind you. In order to fall back every model in your unit has to be outside of 1" of enemy models and you can't move through their units.

Bharring wrote:
So when you take casualties, kill who they surrounded? Just make sure you're positioned so they can only surround a few guys?

I charge intersections of units, and only one of units. The hostage is coming from a unit I can't legally damage. Takes a lot of practice, because assault. In a pinch, I can blow the 3 CP.

Hormagaunts and such don't have to resort to such shenanigans.

Usually genestealers there will be no survivors. It is not something I would count on.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?

Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self. A 30 man Hormagaunt unit averages about 4 SM kills. So every unit besides Scouts with their poorer save can survive, plus it's pretty rare that a full unit of Hormagaunts isn't taking casualties before hitting the main line anyways.

Martel732 wrote:
It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.

Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.

I'm chalking this up to unprepared players, because it's been pretty easy for me to prevent "hostage taking" by forming "walls" with units contacting each other, not allowing any unit surrounding. It can be broken with a "fight again" stratagem sometimes, but that can amount to 3 CPs for only a few more casialties and maaaybe unit lock, depending on what's going on. Results are very particular to the situation. But against Tyranids actual physical unit barriers have done wonders for me, allowing lots of fall-back-and-fire opportunities.

With all the flying baddies running around anyone using stalkers as cheap t8 anti-custode/flyrant/de/destroyer/harlie/magnus/morty?

110ish points for 6 s7 -1 2d shots doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world combined with 11 t8 wounds but I'm not sure those points wouldn't be better spent somewhere else and the 2+ vs flying is great but 4+ vs anything else really isn't. I do need some on the board power level so I've been looking for something tough to leave out there so I can deepstrike my squishy stuff and this is the cheapest/most resilient force I see.

The only thing putting me off is they would require a castle of some sort to just not get tied up in combat and I've been trying to get away from static gunlines (mostly because they are boring to play and other armies do that better).

I guess if I really want some t8 in my army I should probably just get a knight/IG ally but I figured it was worth an ask.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?

Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self. A 30 man Hormagaunt unit averages about 4 SM kills. So every unit besides Scouts with their poorer save can survive, plus it's pretty rare that a full unit of Hormagaunts isn't taking casualties before hitting the main line anyways.

Martel732 wrote:
It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.

Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.

I'm chalking this up to unprepared players, because it's been pretty easy for me to prevent "hostage taking" by forming "walls" with units contacting each other, not allowing any unit surrounding. It can be broken with a "fight again" stratagem sometimes, but that can amount to 3 CPs for only a few more casialties and maaaybe unit lock, depending on what's going on. Results are very particular to the situation. But against Tyranids actual physical unit barriers have done wonders for me, allowing lots of fall-back-and-fire opportunities.

yeah if you're letting your units get taken hostage you're I dunno rushing a tac squad out alone? that's asking for trouble

bananathug wrote:
With all the flying baddies running around anyone using stalkers as cheap t8 anti-custode/flyrant/de/destroyer/harlie/magnus/morty?

110ish points for 6 s7 -1 2d shots doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world combined with 11 t8 wounds but I'm not sure those points wouldn't be better spent somewhere else and the 2+ vs flying is great but 4+ vs anything else really isn't. I do need some on the board power level so I've been looking for something tough to leave out there so I can deepstrike my squishy stuff and this is the cheapest/most resilient force I see.

The only thing putting me off is they would require a castle of some sort to just not get tied up in combat and I've been trying to get away from static gunlines (mostly because they are boring to play and other armies do that better).

I guess if I really want some t8 in my army I should probably just get a knight/IG ally but I figured it was worth an ask.

I've thought about it, but I went with what I already own, a twin autocannon venerable dreadnought. 156pts for 8 shots at nondegrading BS2 vs every target, 6+++, and chapter tactics. Admittedly no T8, but still seems a decent deal for 40 pts more vs the stalker unless you know for sure you'll always have fly targets.

Of course, the most frequent list suggestion I've gotten is to dump the venerable, so... I admit, infantry would likely be better, but I'm trying to run a Leviathan and feel like I need some other type of armor on the table to make the thing slightly less of the fire magnet it already is.

Anything short of a knight and your Leviathan will be the first target for your opponent. Everyone's wise to how insanely powerful they are these days, I've found.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
-1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.

Here's the thing though: it hardly ever happens. When people charge they're charging to kill so you don't fall back anyway.

Disagree partly. Especially with vehicles tag charging is common strategy and for orks it's primary way to deal with them as killing vehicles is pure nightmare for orks. KMK's only go so long especially as they aren't that tough to destroy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.

In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.

That's primary use for any chimera I might bring. Forget transport. BAH. Forget shooting. It's what it does while waiting for chance to target enemy unit for charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.

I agree with this. If anything non-fly in Space Marine army got charged by full strength hordes Genestealers, Hormagants or Ork greentide. It generally have 2 consequences, 1 is wiped outright, 2 is being "taken hostage" so those hordes can wipe them out in your turn to avoid being shot by you, and charge into your next unit back in their turn. You will generally hope the 1st consequence to occur.

However, if what charges you is a trukk, Rhino, Eldar Wave Serpent or Harlequin Skyweaver. Then fall back and shoot is much more valuable

Greentide has one issue though. It's not FAST unit. Surrounding requires sufficient distance especially when marine player positions stuff well or has multiple units side by side. Easy to say "surround". If your charge reaches just about front of unit and there's 2nd unit next to it you need to move a lot of stuff to surround. Sure you get 2 units into combat but...Well then they move back and blow things apart.

That's what I faced not that long time ago for example. Trio of dreadnoughts and some support characters. Sure I tagged lots of them into combat. Then they stepped back and fired 24 shots rerolling to hit rolls and was it even to wound rolls. Sure -1 hurt a bit but hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's resulted in tons of dead guys.

Wasn't even worst UM gunline(no Guillimann in the 1.5k list) but damn it fired and being vehicles orks struggled to take any out(and if it was alive it was healed) and tagging them in combat wasn't proving to be easy task.

Tyranids it might be bit easier. Faster(lot), ability to move twice in a turn, ability to fight twice...But orks are lot more predictable where they move and lot slower. Wall of units is pretty much not possible to surround. Especially if you aren't willing to wait couple extra turns to surround them more before charge and that just exposes you to more shooting. Can't even rely on da jump helping as a) getting them behind requires UM leave empty space there b) requires 9" charge which is 50-50.

 Primark G wrote:
@ CT

Again you don’t understand... armies such as Tyranids, CSM, Necrons, Dark Eldar and others have good-great melee units but not at the expense of shooting... none are played as primarily melee based. I don’t play in a melee heavy meta.

What are the big events (LVO, NOVA, Adepticon level) that RG won?

I’ve never said Vertus Praetors are inferior to Allarus. It’s just you don’t understand why Allarus are good.

All armies that will either surround or wipe out a squad in close combat, or kill enough that it beinf able to shoot is almost pointless.

RG hasnt won any national level events, but if we only went off those results we would all be rushing out to buy Ork armies since it won in London. Of course, National Events are won by the new hotness, typically, and a lot of them have been plagued with drama and slowplay lately.

You spent over ten pages in the custodes thread arguing with math that points out the Praetors did more wounds in virtually every scenario. If your idea of good is protecting your gunline (so standing around waiting for you to be charged), then, woo, I guess? Praetors do everything the Terminators do, but better.

I have always maintained Allarus are a good unit and was trolled the classic response being you should only ever take jetbikes so what you have said above is less than true. While jetbikes are very good there are things that Allarus are much better at doing. I think that is hard for you to fathom. I know you can't drop it though after all this time and let it pass though because you are - well you know what you are.

"All armies that will either surround or wipe out a squad in close combat, or kill enough that it beinf able to shoot is almost pointless."

This is quite a silly statement - if a squad is wiped out it doesn't even matter. /rolleyes You cannot prove there are any armies that can always completely surround enemy units. Is this really the best you can do as a retort? ROFLMAO

I have never had any of my smurf squads wrapped following enemy melee - it is all about positioning.

So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

Just Lascannons, Grav, plasma and a Thunderhammer or two, probably. I'm not sure I'll have to change much besides tactics.