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I've run codex marines for most of my 40k experience and I've found that the predator doesn't really fit well with a Mech Space Marine army. I usually try to stay mobile while bringing firepower to bear against my foes. I tend to find that Land raiders and Vindicators both fit this role a whole lot better. A predator w/ sponsons can't move if it intends to utilize all of its firepower. One LR weighs in around 250ish points and can fire two las cannons while moving 6 inches. Two las sponson predators cost around the same, but are way easier to kill.

What do you guys think about the SM predator?

Personally at-least, I love the Space Marine Predator. Or the Chaos Predator for that matter.

Particularly when equipped with 2 Lascannon Sponsons and an Autocannon, the Predator can provide an impressive amount of firepower for relatively few points. Combine this with the likes of heavy weapon tacticals or Razorbacks and it's happy days. What's to say you have to run either Predators OR a Landraider, if you have both then that's an impressive amount of targets and a helluva lot of firepower.

Vindicators are very good, I don't doubt that, however their comparative range and only 1 weapon is a weakness and really, whichever fits best can depend on the composition of the rest of your army. If you're more focussed for close-range/quarters, with lots of meltas and multimeltas and/or close combat troops, then Vindicators will fit the bit, working together well with their similar optimum ranges.
However, if you are most focussed on firepower, rather than closing with the enemy, then Predators are the way to, possessing a helluva lot of firepower for few points

Finally, Predators also help with Armour Saturation, an all important thing in 40K these days, providing even more firepower and potential targets for your opponents to deal with.

Predators aren't necessarily the best choice, that will depend on the rest of your army (which I'd advise posting), however they are still a good unit and I at least love 'em!

They have their uses. My triple lascannon predator is horrificly effective at taking down armour.

Having said that, more often than not taking the likes of vindicators is more viable. But don't dismiss them - they definately have their uses.

While the triple lascannon Pred is overprised by quite a few points the ACLC Pred is awesome at taking down transports. (which is the bread and butter of 5th ed) Just make sure to deploy them with nice firing lanes so that you can stay stationary. AV 13 with 48" range is pretty difficult to stop at range so it also increase your armour saturation.
The Rifelman dread is a nice compliment to the ACLC Pred aswell, putting out 4 TL str 7 shots each turn.

In previous space marine codexes, when lascannons still dominated in the anti-tank role, preds were the best chassis for carrying lascannons and killing enemy armor.

In 5th editon, lascannons aren't anywhere near as effective at anti-heavy-armor as they used to be. Cover saves for vehicles and the new vehicle damage chart mean that lascannons tend to bounce off AR12+. Melta weapons are the most cost-effective way to kill heavy armor now.

So a shift has happened in how the force org charts for space marines work. The cheap and effective antitank weapons have moved into the elite (dreadnoughts) and fast (speeders, attack bikes) slots where you can take inexpensive, mobile multimeltas.

That leaves a need in a balanced space marine army for anti-troop firepower, which is now where the predator shines.

Three 85-point predators with AC/HB (or two and a whirlwind) is the only loadout I've used since 5th edition started, and it hasn't let me down yet.

Dakka Pred or Auto/Las Pred is the way to go as others said. Fill their roles nicely without committing too many points

Some one asked what is in my army. At around 1500pts I run the following;

Libby w/ Terminator Armor and Stormshield w/ Nullzone and Avenger.

2x Tactical Squads, Pwr Fist, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Missile (2nd Squad has a lascannon)

2x Land speeder typhoon w/ HB

2x Vindicators

1x Hammernators (unit of 5)

1x Landraider w/ MM.

The list gives lots of High AV and has flanking elements to try to get around weak sided vehicles (battlewagons mainly)

The list tends to be rather mobile. I'll try to get control of the center of the board and make plays for objectives around turn 4. If I end up playing capture and control. I keep the lascannon squad at home point (I'll usually combat squad). Send most of the army forward. If my opponent has deepstrikers or flanking, I'll leave the smaller rhino squad to provide support for the las squad.

Thaylen wrote:I've run codex marines for most of my 40k experience and I've found that the predator doesn't really fit well with a Mech Space Marine army. I usually try to stay mobile while bringing firepower to bear against my foes. I tend to find that Land raiders and Vindicators both fit this role a whole lot better. A predator w/ sponsons can't move if it intends to utilize all of its firepower. One LR weighs in around 250ish points and can fire two las cannons while moving 6 inches. Two las sponson predators cost around the same, but are way easier to kill.

What do you guys think about the SM predator?

I think your initial impression is right. predators arent great. theyre just ok. I almost never run them.

As said AC/HB preds are goot anti-infantry on an AV 13 chassis. The AC/Las is good light AT and cheaper than picking up devs with 2 LCs andcan fire on the move.

Land Raiders are the cost of two preds.

Vindicators are shorter ranged and become useless on a weapon destroyed.

Different roles.

jmurph wrote:

Land Raiders are the cost of two preds.

The cost of *three* dakka preds. You can fill all your heavy slots with AR13 vehicles for 255 points.

They certainly have their uses. If you're looking for cost effective ways of taking down Infantry/Vehicles, Predators are what I sometimes consider the "Poor Man's Devastator Squad". While there are definitely more effective ways of taking out both, Predators do a decent job in smaller point games (ie - 1500 points or less).

Do you think triple las preds become more viable in a BA list as they have the ability to move 6" and still get off 3 las shots?

I rather think Turret Las/HB sponson preds are the way to go for BA. That way you can go 12 and still fire the LAS on the rapid move, allowing you to arrange the enemy in your heavy front arc, and if you need the dakka you can slow down a little, still have your moves and unleash anti-horde.

yes absolutely. however since everything else in that book is fast too the benefits of a pred that moves 6 and shoots everything have to be compared to the benefits of a vindicator that moves 12 and shoots or a baal predator that scouts and moves 12 and shoots.

True, but the way I'm looking at it (which could be wrong or not really optimal) is that at higher point values, say 2500, they fulfill completely different roles from each other rather than trying to get one thing to fulfill multiple roles. I've a buddy who is starting BA that I'm trying to help out and for that range I was thinking about 2x flamestorm Baals, 2x triple las preds, a vindi, 3 MM speeders, and the troops in TLAC Razors. Baals for infantry blocks, las preds for long range light to medium AT, vindi for elite/multi wound infantry blocks, the speeders for medium to high AT, and the TLACs to fill in the gaps.

yes... well... the roles are different... so I guess the first thing to ask would be.... what are you expecting this predator to do....?

Thaylen wrote:Some one asked what is in my army. At around 1500pts I run the following;

Libby w/ Terminator Armor and Stormshield w/ Nullzone and Avenger.

2x Tactical Squads, Pwr Fist, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Missile (2nd Squad has a lascannon)

2x Land speeder typhoon w/ HB

2x Vindicators

1x Hammernators (unit of 5)

1x Landraider w/ MM.

The list gives lots of High AV and has flanking elements to try to get around weak sided vehicles (battlewagons mainly)

The list tends to be rather mobile. I'll try to get control of the center of the board and make plays for objectives around turn 4. If I end up playing capture and control. I keep the lascannon squad at home point (I'll usually combat squad). Send most of the army forward. If my opponent has deepstrikers or flanking, I'll leave the smaller rhino squad to provide support for the las squad.

I'd argue either would work well here. The predators would coordinate well with the ranged weapons on the Land Speeders, Land Raider and Tac squad whilst the Hammernators counter-attack, whilst the Vindicators would be suitable for your aggressive play-style.
Either would work and I'd argue that in most cases they could perform as well as each other. My personal preference would lie in Predators due to covering fire, but looking at your situation, I'd argue Predator or Vindicator to be suitable, although a Vindicator may go someway to compensating your lack of Melta...

As I said, long range AT with mobility to move where needed. Mainly they pick off backline elements and have the mobility to quickly relocate if they need to get at something hiding behind terrain or to pull themselves away from a threat that pops up behind the lines. If the other elements of the army whiff in their shooting they can pick up the slack in poping transports and advancing armor or MCs. I'm not overly comfortable with blast markers to pop armor, and Baals don't really have the punch for anything higher than AV 11. Plus a weapons destroyed result on them doesn't immediately limit their offensive capability to tank shocking/ramming like vindis.

I play somewhat of an AV 13 spam list with baals, AC/LC preds, and furiosos. The AC/LC preds in this case are extremely adept at taking out transports for my troops to get to the gooey center. They can also maneuver into best position for MC hunting. I play against chaos and tyranids a lot and being able to move into better firing lanes against daemon princes/defilers, or any number of TMCs helps a great deal. They are also adept at popping regular dreads. With the two s9 shots and the two s7 shots, something will get through.

Maelstrom808 wrote:As I said, long range AT with mobility to move where needed. Mainly they pick off backline elements and have the mobility to quickly relocate if they need to get at something hiding behind terrain or to pull themselves away from a threat that pops up behind the lines. If the other elements of the army whiff in their shooting they can pick up the slack in poping transports and advancing armor or MCs. I'm not overly comfortable with blast markers to pop armor, and Baals don't really have the punch for anything higher than AV 11. Plus a weapons destroyed result on them doesn't immediately limit their offensive capability to tank shocking/ramming like vindis.

well I think you're better off killing vehicles up close for a couple of reasons.
....blood angels are an assault army so you want to be up close.
....meltaguns have a stronger stat line vs tanks, are cheap, and widely available throughout the army.
....spamming meltaguns throughout the army prevents your opponent from destroying your anti-tank capabilities just by killing a few key units.
....if you are assaulting you dont want some elements in the fight and others out - you want everything in so that you're hitting as hard as you possibly can.
....when you shoot at armored targets at range they are much more likely to take cover saves than if you shoot up close.

that being said if you've made up your mind to fight at range then the tri las pred is probably the way to go.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:As I said, long range AT with mobility to move where needed. Mainly they pick off backline elements and have the mobility to quickly relocate if they need to get at something hiding behind terrain or to pull themselves away from a threat that pops up behind the lines. If the other elements of the army whiff in their shooting they can pick up the slack in poping transports and advancing armor or MCs. I'm not overly comfortable with blast markers to pop armor, and Baals don't really have the punch for anything higher than AV 11. Plus a weapons destroyed result on them doesn't immediately limit their offensive capability to tank shocking/ramming like vindis.

well I think you're better off killing vehicles up close for a couple of reasons.
....blood angels are an assault army so you want to be up close.
....meltaguns have a stronger stat line vs tanks, are cheap, and widely available throughout the army.
....spamming meltaguns throughout the army prevents your opponent from destroying your anti-tank capabilities just by killing a few key units.
....if you are assaulting you dont want some elements in the fight and others out - you want everything in so that you're hitting as hard as you possibly can.
....when you shoot at armored targets at range they are much more likely to take cover saves than if you shoot up close.

that being said if you've made up your mind to fight at range then the tri las pred is probably the way to go.

Meltaguns being common if anything should deter you from bringing your tanks (eg. Vindicators) up close. Those vindicators are at much greater risk than any back-line Predators.
Spamming meltagun can also restrict your options as against some armies (such as Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Dark Eldar etc) the Meltagun can have relatively little effect due to a small number of high-armoured tanks or abilities that negate their effects. Similarly, many armies are the kind you want to stay away from (eg. Blood Angels) so trying to get up into their face with a meltagun can do more harm than good. Also, you could make a similar argument to your own about spamming ranged anti-tank throughout your army.
The problem with a Vindicator - for example - being up close whilst your main force is in assault is that you could either commit friendly fire (scatter) of suffer from a lack of available or unengaged targets. A Predator could sit back and destroy any transports to prevent the enemy getting out of reach of your assault troops, the Vindicator however will have a smaller range of available targets.

I'm not completely disputing your argument, for yes, Meltaguns are cheaper and more regularly available and yes, they are generally superior against tanks. However, they are not the be all and end all and the range of the Predator for example is a significant advantage, particularly for Codex Space Marines, which the OP plays.
Finally, Vindicators are not meltaguns and a tri-las Predator is typically less cost-effective than an autocannon/lascannon sponson predator.

Ultimately, I'd say that a mix of ranged and melta anti-tank is best. The ranged can prevent the enemy from having too much freedom and manoeuvrability and allows you to stay out of reach of many armies which you won't want to close with. However, the meltagun can provide a significant threat and is typically superior for popping heavier armoured tanks. Hence a mix is best, not all meltaguns.
Basically, I'd say meltaguns are better for Landraiders and Main Battle Tanks, whereas Lascannons and the like are better for Transports.

Tri-las pred? No.

As has been pointed out, the 3rd Lascannon is overpriced by far. The AC/Las has the right amount of killing power for its cost. It isn't undercosted, so its not a must-have, but it does do its job for the cost.

Lets keep this on topic, the OP wants to discuss C:SM

@ OP: Check out the link in my sig. I play a somewhat similar army to the one you posted. Have a look at the tourny report there and you can see that I use a pred myself and it works quite well for what I want of it.

well you make some good points....

I agree that the prevalance of meltaguns is a good reason not to bring tanks. when I run blood angels I dont bring any for just that reason.

except for land speeders, for the reason you mentioned next. if a normal guy with a jump pack and a melta gun cant catch the really mobile stuff, bring a cheap, fast skimmer with a bigger meltagun to do the job. they get killed but thats ok as long as they're killing stuff right back.

there are a few units in the game that take away your melta effect and have high armor values.... black templar crusaders and necron monoliths... cant think of any others. all the other stuff is low armor enough that you're ok with just str. 8. if there were more things with living metal or ceramite plating then I would agree, but right now its just not a big enough problem to require a special response. especially when you can just send the monolith home by killing the warriors.

I agree vindicators present some problems for a close combat themed army. I just meant that the predator's abilities have to be looked at in the overall context of the army. is it better than a normal predator? sure. is it a 1st pick for a blood angels army? I dont think so.

I believe that you can rely exclusively on melta weapons for your anti tank work and do very well provided that you bring the meltaguns on sufficiently mobile platforms.

I agree, Land Speeders are a very good choice and melta guns usually have the strength to take on most targets, ranged weapons (eg. Lascannons) can have a better strength and range, making them superior against lightly armoured transports such as raiders or rhinos.
Land Speeders definitely have the speed needed to make meltaguns all the more deadly.
Ultimately I'd argue Preds and Vindicators to be as good as one another unless you are seeking anti-infantry.

However, a lot of the arguments you are raising you put in the context of Blood Angels which simply doesn't apply to the OP...

well I was responding to maelstrom's post. I answered OP earlier. SM predators are just an ok tank. not great, not crap, just.... you know... whatever. I try to optimize everything so for me that means they're out. but if he just wants a work horse tank that wont be too great and wont be too bad then I guess they're fine.

All very good points and are excellent guidelines that I really can't argue with.

I will mention a couple things:

....meltaguns have a stronger stat line vs tanks, are cheap, and widely available throughout the army.
....spamming meltaguns throughout the army prevents your opponent from destroying your anti-tank capabilities just by killing a few key units.

All the infantry squads do have melta so it's still there if it's needed, and the more firepower being put down towards non-scoring units as opposed to scoring units, the better, especially if the scoring units have decent can-opening abilities of their own.

....if you are assaulting you dont want some elements in the fight and others out - you want everything in so that you're hitting as hard as you possibly can.

Well, unless you are talking about dreads or walkers that can actually join assaults, armor is in the fight as long as the fight is within the range of their weapons, and the triple las preds have a pretty long range.

Part of it probably is, I play Nids, and the list I'm proposing for him is the scariest BA list I could come up with against what I run, so while I tried to build in the ability to play any army, it's probably a little biased.

EDIT: Yeah, I'll step out at this point and let the discussion continue in vanilla marines. I was actually looking for some quick opinions, which I got, and I'll re-examine some things in what I'm doing. Thanks for the input

true. meltaguns arent at their best vs. bugs 0.o

Dakka Preds are great against infantry. Better than both Whirlwinds and Vindicators IMO. 6 HB shots and 2 AC shots will kill on average the same amount of infantry, except its actually more accurate than a scattering template.

They are generally the best Heavy choice for Marines, except SW who have Long Fangs.

Predators aren't great. Predators are cheap. My old 700-point army--Libby, 2 tac squads, 2 Razorbacks, and 3 predators.

It depends what you expect out of them.

Dakka preds for less than 100 pts can dole out 2 S7, 6 S5 and 2 S4 shots.

If you are points light 3 las preds will cost about the same as 2 Landraiders. So you move 2 LRS and generate 4 TL Las shots. If I move 2 las preds and leave one stationary I have 3 TL Las and 2 Las shots. I would say the equal of the LRs except for the carrying capacity.

My old list used to be 5 las/plas razorbacks and 2 dakka preds with 6 speeders and it worked well. To field two raiders I would drop the 2 preds and 6 speeders and probably 1 razorback squad. Give an opponent 8 targets with medium/low armor or 2 armored boxes. Give me the firepower and leave the armor at home unless you are truly an assaulty SM and need to deliver assault troops and then you'll be moving (crusader) instead of 6" move & fire.