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I'm going up against DoC for the first time this weekend, and i was looking for a few general tips on how to deal with them, or certain things to look out for. Unfortunately i dont have any idea what my opponent will be fielding, but for-warned is for-armed, so any imput will be useful.
Thanks.

What to look out for?

Well, troops that dont run away - although their version of crumbling is harsh, as they can lose more than a VC army in the same situation (they still roll dice, unlike normal crumbling). Everything also causes at least fear, so while less painful than 7th you may still find yourself WS1

Army wide ward saves of at least 5+. Tz units generally have, or can get, 4+ wards.

Cheap heros (Heralds) who buff core units, e.g. Tz heralds improving ward saves, Khorne Heralds giving unit hatred.

Horror blocks: these count as wizards, are core troops, and their wizard level depends on how many models are in the unit. Means in small games they can still bring a level 4 casting character....

Blood letters are slightly quicker infantry (M5) with S5 and KB. Only 1A so they benefit from supporting attacks

Fiends - very fast (M10) Ogre class. Painful as they have decent attacks, decent I, and generally get the charge.

Flamers - skirmishing, 2W, S5 T4 4+ WS with 18" range shooting attacks. DId I mention BS4 and the shooting attack is D6 shots each?? They were annoying in 7th, less so now as the skirmishing rules are slightly harsher. However youc an now march and shoot with them...yuck!

Big monsters: you probably wont see a greater daemon, as they are a LOT of points and tend to die to cannons. Keeper of Secrets possibly, as s/he/it can generally avoid getting attacked in combat, and regen wounds.

Assuming an 8th ed geared list you should see 1 or 2 horror blocks, probably a Tz caster on chariot knowing all spells and getting extra dice, and not much more magic. They can have some good Ld messing abilities (a banner that drops your Ld within 12" as well as a SC that can drop a units ld by D3) and the ward across everything can make them surprisingly resilient. Bloodletters are my other fave core in 8th, and probably see some Fiends and Flamers filling out other points. They also have cheap furies, flying unit - poor stats but they can tie up war machines.

Wow, some of that does sound pretty nasty. Thankfully this is only a 1500pt game, so i doubt ill see any greater demons or fiends, those flamers or bloodletters might pose a problem though...
What lores do the demons have access to? Is there a lore thats particularly effective against them (im playing DE)?

they can access every BRB lore (Tz, know all spells gift) as well as having some nasty ones of their own. Tz lore is pretty much pure gunline, with even the basic 5+ to cast spell doing D6+1 S(D6+1) hits with good range. Fiends arent too expensive and 6 is a good investment at 1500, so you may see them.

If you're playing DE then slowing them down so you can shoot them to bits a bit is probably best. Most of them are T3 with a 5+ ward after all, so die to concerted shooting. Theyre also 12pts each, basic, so hordes are difficult for them to muster.

Have a search, there should be a few Daemons threads about Just remember - they were broken in 7th (when basically a Blood Thirster could take your army) but MUCH less so now.

i assume you will be fielding DE by your Sig.

in general you will want to hit them with alot of attacks. Deamons may all have wards, but they will fall to tons of attacks. Witch Elves might be a good bet here. the basic deamons are T3, some are 4, so you shouldn't have to much trouble wounding them with Witches.

their magic is pretty strong. i faced a 40 strong Pink Horror unit on Monday and it would have put out the hurt if it hadn't Irrisistable force/miscast the very first spell and dealt a Str10 blow to each memeber of the unit and killed 17 of them

you can try shooting them to death. lots of crossbows should drop them pretty fast. a 5+ ward is still only a 1/3 chance to save.

hydras can put out a ton of attacks with profile, breath, and Tstomp. causing Terror will keep it in the fight.


if you beat a deamon unit in combat it very well could take even more casualities with Deamonic Instability.

Grey Templar wrote:their magic is pretty strong. i faced a 40 strong Pink Horror unit on Monday and it would have put out the hurt if it hadn't Irrisistable force/miscast the very first spell and dealt a Str10 blow to each memeber of the unit and killed 17 of them

Next time, remind your opponent that Horrors have their own miscast rules, and don't use the miscast table in the BRB - they just lose d6 models, no saves.

Janthkin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:their magic is pretty strong. i faced a 40 strong Pink Horror unit on Monday and it would have put out the hurt if it hadn't Irrisistable force/miscast the very first spell and dealt a Str10 blow to each memeber of the unit and killed 17 of them

Next time, remind your opponent that Horrors have their own miscast rules, and don't use the miscast table in the BRB - they just lose d6 models, no saves.

really?

he has been playing DoC since 6th. i would have thought he would have known about this.

Take big blocks. Daemons have nothing that uses templates, outside of a S4 breathe on the nurgle guys.

If you've got the models, I'd start off with 2 blocks of 40 spearmen, 8 wide, and 5 deep. If you take the charge, you'll have 24 S3 attacks with re-rolls. That will put the hurt on daemons. Only 255 points with full command. Plus, options for magic banners. On average, you'll be trading 6 point models for 12 point models, and then winning combat to boot (more ranks, + warbanner option).

Now, the real threat to these big blocks is the Herald of Tzeench and him knowing all the spells out of a basic lore.
I'd counter this with a level 4 sorceress, hex scroll, pendant, and the lore of death.
The Pendant keeps you alive (reverse ward save) and the Hex scroll and really cripple a level 2 herald. To top it off, cast spirit leech, and you're rolling you Ld9 against his Ld8, or Ld7 vs his mounts, special, and rare choices. Purple Sun will kill good numbers of anything Tzeench, and murdalate anything nurgle.

Khorne and slaanesh you just go toe to toe with, using your numbers and hate to carry the day.

-Matt

Ahem, as exampled by my posting of dark elves vs demon battle reports (go over and take a look for a play by play of it), I might know I thing or two.

First, 1500 points will play to your hand, as you can take a lvl 4 caster, he has to take horrors to do that, and they are really limited on what spells they know.

Musts for dark elves:
Lore of shadow on a lvl 4, very affective, this is a time where you'll try to sub away from pit of shades, as it's not too affective against them. I can tell you, S2, T1 bloodletters are not terrifying at all.

Hydras actually take a back seat here. Horrors get flaming attacks, and a changeling mimics the hydra and can hurt, bloodcrushers and bloodletters are both able to beat hydras toe to toe in combat. I wouldn't take more than 1 (then again, I wouldn't take more than 1 at 1500, regardless). Oh, and forgot about flamers, and the fact almost all tzeentch spells are flaming....

Corsairs (or witches, depending on your preference) are great against them, a little magic debuffing/buffing and they become power houses.

As already stated, RXBs are the way to go, take em in units of 20 with shields and command minus the champ. Shoot shoot shoot until they charge, then just lay into em with your (surprisingly) adequate melee unit. On 3 separate occasions, I've had bloodcrushers charge into my RXBs, only to lose all three of them to stand and shoot/combat (initiative 5 over 4).

If they take a herald of tzeentch, they'll have access to all the lores, and can take all the spells from that lore, so they *will* have some magic, but it'll be on a lvl 2, so advantage should go to your lvl 4.

This will be a time when you'll be outnumbering somebody, as he has to pay a premium for his units (I think the cheapest thing in their book is 12 pts?).

Basically, play them how dark elves should play everybody else, make things as unfair as possible in the melee phase, his units are good in combat, with a few spells, dark elves are better.

P.S. - a little experiment I've been running, is using lore of metal on my secondary caster (I wouldn't take one at 1500, but I'll say this anyway). I've been trying it out against bad armor save armies (beastmen, skaven, OnG, other elves, etc...) and it's proven to be worth it. Take demons, if he has bloodcrushers, then the basic spell wounds on 4+, so at a bare minimum, you'll have something to use. I've found enchanted blades and glittering scales to be just plain awesome. I just got done playing against beastmen, where my unit of 30 corsairs had enchanted blades on them, and went ahead and dealt 11 wounds to a unit of 6 minotaurs, took 7 wounds in return, won combat and chased em down, didn't even break a sweat.

Anyway, that's all I got for now.

Awesome! thanks for all the feedback. The game is later today, I'll let ya know how it turned out. Last night I tired pestering my opponent into revealing what he was fielding but he wouldn't crack. Looks like it'll be corsairs and crossbows to the rescue today lol.

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:Awesome! thanks for all the feedback. The game is later today, I'll let ya know how it turned out. Last night I tired pestering my opponent into revealing what he was fielding but he wouldn't crack. Looks like it'll be corsairs and crossbows to the rescue today lol.

Daemon players I know would screen their advance with the cheap T4 skirmishing flying core. At long range, you're averaging 1 kill per 13 to 14 crossbowmen shooting (if you don't move). At short range, you're looking at 1 kill per 7 shooters. It isn't tough at all for daemons to cross the table through the hail of repeater fire. It just depends on the daemon player actually fielding enough furies.

Of course, you could just shoot through the gaps and take the -2 to hit; then every 9th kills a T3 daemon.


So, if you face a daemon player ready for the dark elf repeater fire, are you better off with marginal kills and fighting with shooters, or no ranged kills, and having twice as many bodies on the table?
Blood Crushers? Really? That's a very easy to kill point sink. They work about as well as daemon princes in daemon armies.

-Matt