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After stumbling across the podcast of the guys from robot chicken playing D&D I have decided to take the plunge and start playing.
As I will be DMing my two questions are 1. Whats the best way to layout a dungeon Ie grid paper or tiles or even my wargaming terrain?
and 2. Whats the best way to get minis for the game I know alot of players just use tokens and such but for myself coming from a wargaming background its all about the minis! But after a quick inspection of what wizards offer in terms of minis and Im blown away that anyone would buys these as they look like toys not minis and you have to buy them like magic the failing cards....and not know what your getting.

So does anyone have any ideas as to how I could lay my hands on a good selection of minis for the game at this point I am most likely to just buy a couple boxes of goblins and undead games workshop stuff to get me started but if I can find a cheaper/better option im all for it.

PHB 1
Monster Manual 1
Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Dice

^^^ minimal

Snacks
pregens to start out with
erasable markers
Grids
Mini's
PHB 2 - 3
Eboron PHB
Forgoten Realms PHB
DMG 2
Monster Manual 2 - 3
Adventure's Vault 1 - 2
^^^ recommended

DDI subscription

^^^ what wizards wants you to get because to makes them money

Thanks I am going to stick with the basic books as they already give me a ton of options biggest problem at this point is the minis

I was lucky enough to find a group who already had a vast selection of mini's and all the rule books.

Ebay is as ever your friend here as you can buy large lots of mini's for cheepish amounts of money.

Wait till next week and just get the new Character Builder for a month ( I think it is like $10). It will have everything you need to make a character as well aas give you a sense of the rules.

After that find a gaming group and play some games to see if you like it or not. This way you are only out a few bucks if you decide it isn't for you. If it is, than start buying books.

This is kind of an awkward moment to jump in as you have 4e and 4e Essentials both out and the Character Builder getting ready to get a radical overhaul.

Essentials uses the 4e rules set but makes the classes more like older editions (1st and 2nd) of the classes. There is the new Red Box which has a solo quest in it that teaches the mechanics as you play through it.



Amazon listing.

I have been collecting and painting miniatures for over 30 years. I was shocked a few weeks ago when I went to a game at a new DnD group and the DM walked in with a 5 gallon bucket filled with those pre-painted figures, some with clicky bases. He said that most of them came from a flea market. He likes them because you can throw them around and not worry about them getting dinged up.

You should really decide if you want to start dnd or the pathfinder rpg. Both are good, but if you want more for less, pathfinder is the way to go.

In terms of what you need, just an available printer for character sheets, dice, your basic rulebooks, and a wet erase grid mat to play on.

juraigamer wrote:You should really decide if you want to start dnd or the pathfinder rpg. Both are good, but if you want more for less, pathfinder is the way to go.

In terms of what you need, just an available printer for character sheets, dice, your basic rulebooks, and a wet erase grid mat to play on.

He didn't ask about Pathfinder, he wants to play current games with fun people: manly men and attractive ladies. Not hacked games with those who can't let go of the past.

In all seriousness though, they aren't that different in price.

I would seriously consider just going with the WotC prepaints or tokens for monsters. Maybe if your players are into the game,either you or they can buy and paint mini's to represent the PC's,but if you're buying GW or equivalent mini's for every encounter you plan,that will get really expensive quickly. The other issue is that since you're new to D&D,and it also sounds like your gaming group will be new to the game,your focus really needs to be on learning the rules and planning adventures. That stuff is time consuming enough,and you could find yourself overwhelmed if you're going to add painting/modeling time on top of it.

For a first time DM,I would also recommend picking up some pregenerated adventure modules. Even if you never play through them,they can give you a good example of how to plan out adventures. They can also help you keep the game going if you're stuck for ideas and/or didn't have enough free time during the week to devote to planning for the upcoming game session.

Thanks for all your help guys as far as I can tell no one around my area plays so Im going to have to convert people (not that hard I did it for 40k) I had a brief look at pathfinder and decided I prefer D&Ds combat more I know alot of hardcore roleplayers will got nuts but the 4E rules are great for newer players the combat seems more robust and its well supported by WoTC.

As I understand it 3.5 had more roleplay options but I dont think the roleplay side of things needs that much in the way of hard or fast rules since its well errr roleplay =)

Im also interested in rogue trader etc but ive no idea if the systems are similar in any way. But I like the idea that between myself and my friends 40k armies we have minis covered and who the hell dosent wanna play a space pirate I mean its a pirate in space its gotta be full of win (now I just need space ninjas options but not space cowboys cuzz cowboys are lame)

Ahtman wrote:

He didn't ask about Pathfinder, he wants to play current games with fun people: manly men and attractive ladies. Not hacked games with those who can't let go of the past.

In all seriousness though, they aren't that different in price.

Ah, correction please, pathfinder is D&D.

Furthermore it's another viable and completely valid way to play what he is wanting to play. I wasn't aware if the OP was aware of it's existence, and chimed in so if it was what he was looking for, he would know about it and could look into pathfinder.

Besides, why pay $500+ for all the 4th ed D&D books when you can spend $150 on the only three pathfinder books and get more content. Plus the pathfinder world's lore is wonderful in my opinion.

juraigamer wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

He didn't ask about Pathfinder, he wants to play current games with fun people: manly men and attractive ladies. Not hacked games with those who can't let go of the past.

In all seriousness though, they aren't that different in price.

Ah, correction please, pathfinder is D&D.

Advice: Pull thine stick out of thine rear

Knowledge is power, as some people say. Ignorance begets heresy. You might wanna looking into some of that forbidden lore regarding all things "Pathfinder" before you try to create falsehoods.

Don't get me wrong, I think 4th ed is a decent game. I however dislike the money grubbing it has changed itself to be. I am not alone in the feeling that the change from 3rd to 4th was made to both simplify and create more revenue. Static powers? Sure they are fun, but it gets old pretty fast and you need a lot of books to even open up decent options. 4th ed would do really really well as a pc game.

Yet I feel pathfinder is staying true to D&D's core beginnings. It may be slightly more complex, but then again do we want all our games dumbed down? Take into account that everything from 3rd edition is compatible with pathfinder and you have a winner. Then add the fact that the pathfinder core rulebook is a 578 full color pages for $60 USD, and if you just want the pdf it's only $10 USD? What's not to like?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's all they are. It would behoove any statement to be backed up with a good reasoning/proof, otherwise it just helps the other sides case.

Knowledge is power after all.

juraigamer wrote:Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's all they are. It would behoove any statement to be backed up with a good reasoning/proof, otherwise it just helps the other sides case.

So you are going to stay insufferable and humorless, gotcha. If you want to be whiney about how your favorite edition of D&D died and was reborn as a different title, start a different thread. The OP said he wanted to start D&D, not Pathfinder. If he had wanted Pathfinder, he would have said Pathfinder. He didn't ask people for their personal opinions on the history of RPG's and edition wars, he asked how to get started in D&D. Right now, D&D is 4e. You want proof?



Hmm, says it right in the title and everything. What about this new Essentials expansion?



Again, also says it in the title. Now let's look at Pathfinder.



Huh. That is weird, it seems to say Pathfinder instead of Dungeons & Dragons. And it isn't even published by the company that owns the rights to Dungeons & Dragons. I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say just because it uses a modified version of an outdated Dungeons & Dragons edition doesn't make it Dungeons & Dragons, that makes it Pathfinder. A fine game in and of itself, except for the humorless, insufferable people that play it. Apparently it appeals to that kind of player, which is a shame I suppose.

Now kids, play nice...

Jubear wrote:Thanks for all your help guys as far as I can tell no one around my area plays so Im going to have to convert people (not that hard I did it for 40k) I had a brief look at pathfinder and decided I prefer D&Ds combat more I know alot of hardcore roleplayers will got nuts but the 4E rules are great for newer players the combat seems more robust and its well supported by WoTC.

Well, 4E certainly encourages robust combat, or perhaps just encourages combat robustly... can't remember which. Seriously though, I played the new Gammaworld which uses 4E rules, and other than feeling the need to shower afterwards, it wasn't that bad. Once I got past the idea of everyone's 'light one handed melee weapon' hitting the same as the next, I filled in the gaps mentally and I loudly declared that mine was a petrified mutant halibut I found in the lake bed that used to be the lake sandwiched between the refinery and the steel mill close to where I live.

Jubear wrote:Thanks I am going to stick with the basic books as they already give me a ton of options biggest problem at this point is the minis

The biggest and most terrible secret is that you can play without minis. It works really well too. My friends have played in my Ravenloft game (3.5 Ed at that!) without needing miniatures. It's possible. It's just like a White Wolf game. We've also done really cool things with terrain/measuring distance a la 40k. Try a couple sessions and experiment and see what works out well for you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:
Huh. That is weird, it seems to say Pathfinder instead of Dungeons & Dragons. And it isn't even published by the company that owns the rights to Dungeons & Dragons. I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say just because it uses a modified version of an outdated Dungeons & Dragons edition doesn't make it Dungeons & Dragons, that makes it Pathfinder. A fine game in and of itself, except for the humorless, insufferable people that play it. Apparently it appeals to that kind of player, which is a shame I suppose.

My friends and I can't use the expansions you mentioned sadly though, because it doesn't say in them that they're compatible with the 3.5 rule system. Maybe they'll errata it.



I kid.

daedalus wrote:

Ahtman wrote:
Huh. That is weird, it seems to say Pathfinder instead of Dungeons & Dragons. And it isn't even published by the company that owns the rights to Dungeons & Dragons. I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say just because it uses a modified version of an outdated Dungeons & Dragons edition doesn't make it Dungeons & Dragons, that makes it Pathfinder. A fine game in and of itself, except for the humorless, insufferable people that play it. Apparently it appeals to that kind of player, which is a shame I suppose.

My friends and I can't use the expansions you mentioned sadly though, because it doesn't say in them that they're compatible with the 3.5 rule system. Maybe they'll errata it.



I kid.

On a side note to the mini issue a buddy of mine picked up the new Essentials (which is good for all 4e) Monster Manual kit and it is not to shabby for the price. You get the Manual, an adventure (with maps and everything! omgosh), and lots of thick monster tiles in full color that are the same picks as the ones in the manual. Great way for getting a bunch of monsters right off the bat.

So your only rebuttle is the fact that the words "Dungeons and dragons" are stamped on a product? Such a sad day for thoughtful discussion, though I can play that game.



I'll just leave this here, and go play some Dungeons and Dragons (pathfinder) and use all that money I'm saving not being forced to buy a million books on some excellent warhammer models instead. Tallyho!

juraigamer wrote:So your only rebuttle is the fact that the words "Dungeons and dragons" are stamped on a product? Such a sad day for thoughtful discussion, though I can play that game.

I'll just leave this here, and go play some Dungeons and Dragons (pathfinder) and use all that money I'm saving not being forced to buy a million books on some excellent warhammer models instead. Tallyho!

I think you have a little something on your shoulder. You might want to look into that.

pretre wrote:

juraigamer wrote:So your only rebuttle is the fact that the words "Dungeons and dragons" are stamped on a product? Such a sad day for thoughtful discussion, though I can play that game.

I'll just leave this here, and go play some Dungeons and Dragons (pathfinder) and use all that money I'm saving not being forced to buy a million books on some excellent warhammer models instead. Tallyho!

I think you have a little something on your shoulder. You might want to look into that.

Perhaps whatever it is was supposed to replace his self esteem and sense of humor. It saw the darkness and is now trying to escape as well via the sleeve.

D&D forces people to buy books? Encourages, sure... But I don't think they force anyone to do so.

Castles and Crusades anyone?

Here's what you need to start:
1 month of DDI to get the character builder, monster masher and access to some modules from Dungeon.

A battle mat (I print my own and laminate the suckers so I can draw area effects and what not)

Tokens/Minis (I print mine, punch em out with a hole punch and glue 'em to washers so they have weight, and I can flip them over to indicate bloodied)

A copy of the rules compendium ($20 at your FLGS)

A printer (for the character sheets, maps, tokens, etc.)

Some bros.

Dice (the DM needs a set, and you should probably have a few for everyone else).

That should do it. The Character builder has every bit of crunch currently out for 4e, the monster maker is the same. They also include all the eratta up until now. You don't need the books. They are nice to have at hand, with some great art, but not really necessary.

The 'Character Builder' get-a-month-to-update hole has been/will be fixed soon I hear: They're moving to a web-only version, and the old standalone will not be updated.

Still, PHB1, maybe PHB2 covers a lot of the races/classes most people consider essential. Let the payers buy their own if they want other stuff,

Last week they switched to the new browser-based character builder. It's usable, but is inferior and buggy, and not nearly as good for sharing; if two people are logged onto the same account at the same time, they interfere with each other. They can't work independently on separate characters.

Also, since it's browser-based, you also can only use it if you have a connection to the web. Forget using it if you're using your laptop somewhere you don't have connectivity.

The old one still works, afaik. Just no updates.

I'm still undecided on the web one yet. It was really fast and easy to build a character and we had some collisions, but didn't lose characters while having two people work at the same time.

If it isn't already the old character builder will be removed from the main WotC website. That being said it shouldn't be to difficult to find it online else, typically with the last update (Oct 2010) file to put in it. While missing Dark Sun and Essentials, it will still be very useful for general D&D.

This thread is about D&D, i.e., the product currently published by Wizards of the Coast bearing that name. If someone would like to illuminate OP further regarding Pathfinder, please use PM and/or links to the many, many, many threads that have hashed this vs. that over and over again. Further Edition Wars balderdash will be dealt with like the spam that it is. Thank you and have a wonderful day.

@Ahtman: What exactly is included in the Monster Vault Essentials set manual-wise? Is it an Essentials-sized MM vol. 1 or something different. Either way, it could be useful to OP.

As a matter of fact, could you please give an explanation of the Essentials line in this thread. I think that Wizards may have blundered a bit with these books as it is not totally apparent what they are in relation to the bigger, more expensive books.

Manchu wrote:@Ahtman: What exactly is included in the Monster Vault Essentials set manual-wise? Is it an Essentials-sized MM vol. 1 or something different. Either way, it could be useful to OP.

As a matter of fact, could you please give an explanation of the Essentials line in this thread. I think that Wizards may have blundered a bit with these books as it is not totally apparent what they are in relation to the bigger, more expensive books.

The new Monster Vault comes with the book of course with the updated monster lists, good for all 4e, not just Essentials. It basically is trying to make monsters a challenge as they tended to get wailed on by well oiled parties and this is a bit of a correction. It also comes with a bunch of full color monster tokens of various sizes (as well as a few borders to turn large monsters into huge) that correspond with the monster Manual. The final thing is an adventure that comes with the needed maps.

Essentials is an attempt to appeal to older players by streamlining certain elements. Fighters go back to basically "I attack" instead of "Threatening Rush". Most of the classes just modify their basic moves instead of having a lot of specific choices. Instead of At-Will attacks they have stances (+1 to hit, +2 to damage, ect ect). Fighters can add a die of damage to their attack (Power Attack). It lines up a bit with the older concept of the classes from 1st and 2nd edition. The other reason for essentials is to put all the errata into a new book. Even if you aren't planning on playing Essentials the Essentials Rules Compendium is the 4e rules updated with all the changes.

Thanks for all the advice guys =) However my friends just didnt enjoy the first game at all =( They liked the combat system but had no interest in role playing and managed to kill 3 of my lovingly crafted NPCs in the first session! Every single encounter outside of a dungeon went like this. I would descibe the NPC etc (with rad voice acting too) and long before I finished the second sentance my players are already asking to attack the NPC. I could have made the NPCs tougher I suppose but everything I read about GMing mentions that its not my job to kill my players.

So anybody in Mid north coast area in oz got a DnD group =)

Jubear wrote:everything I read about GMing mentions that its not my job to kill my players.

You are reading the wrong books.