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This could seem really stupid but I'm unsure how many attacks Calgar actually has. It says in his statline that he has four but then he has the gauntlets of Ultramar which give him another attack. Please vote in the poll, write a comment if necessary though I can't see why it would be.

he also has power sword so he gains 0 attacks
so 5 on charge

Sorry, I'm unsure what you mean.

Since he has to choose between 2 special weapons, he doesn't get the extra attack, see page 42.


Cue can of worms.

Yes but the gauntlets are a pair of power fists and it states that he gains an extra attack. He could use the power sword if he wants higher initiative. I think I've just figured out how it works, it's five on a charge with the power sword but six with gauntlets. Please state any reasons why you may think this incorrect.

He has following... Gauntlets of Ultramar power sword.... Where Gauntlets are in description pair of PF... So if he has 4 attacks by default, on charge 5, he would have 2 options:
1. Use power sword and thus have 5 s4 attacks on charge, as he has now pf and power sword in use
2. Use pair of pf and have 6 s8 attacks, as he now uses 2 same special weapons...

This is my interpretation, so can't say I'm sure...

Regarding the Gauntlets of Ultramar there are two interpretations to the rule:

1: They are indeed a pair of Power Fists so you would gain the +1 attack.
2: They are simply a weapon named the Gauntlets of Ultramar, and are only described as a pair of Power Fists fluff-wise, therefore you would not get the bonus for having 2 Power Fists, as they are not "2 Power Fists", they are "1 Gauntlets of Ultramar"

(waiting for Gwar to show up)

Valkyrie wrote:Regarding the Gauntlets of Ultramar there are two interpretations to the rule:

1: They are indeed a pair of Power Fists so you would gain the +1 attack.
2: They are simply a weapon named the Gauntlets of Ultramar, and are only described as a pair of Power Fists fluff-wise, therefore you would not get the bonus for having 2 Power Fists, as they are not "2 Power Fists", they are "1 Gauntlets of Ultramar"

(waiting for Gwar to show up)

that pretty much sums it up. OP, you should do a check of the previous threads via the search function as this question comes up bimonthly and usually devolves into incessant bickering without any clear resolution as no one on either side actually changes their mind. if you play in a setting that uses the INAT FAQ, they have recently ruled that he does get the extra attack for a pair of powerfists.

This is an old debate(and a Debate that continues to rage, and will continue to rage)

Basically it comes down to this:

Calgar has 3 Close Combat weapons(Gauntlets while being 1 piece of wargear ARE 2 powerfists, not even counts as but are) and we have 0 rules on how to deal with a model with more than 2 close combat weapons. Since we are not given any method of choosing what 2 weapons our model is using at any given time, when the model is equipped with more than 1 special weapon we must default to the rules for 2 different special weapons on page 42 of the brb. That is the only way we have any choice because the Main portion of that rule section tells us that a model equipped with the various weapon combinations follow the rules (options below) for what weapons they "use" and the only rule set that ever gives us an option is that of fighting with 2 different special close combat weapons(in which you only get the option of using 1 of your special weapons, not a pair, nor a special and equipped normal; just 1 of the weapons).

Now Calgar screws that up even more with the whole 1 item of wargear(gauntlets of ultramar) is 2 powerfists; so depending on some interpretations one could argue that when presented with the choice of which weapon to use, you could choose to use the "Gauntlets of Ultramar" which is 2 powerfists and thus gain the bonus attack.

On the rare occasion that I field Calgar I err opn the side of caution and take him as 5 attacks on the Charge no matter which weapon I choose(Power Sword or Power Fist) so I vote 5 Attacks on the Charge at all times.

Valkyrie: The Gauntlets have no Fluff in their rules; they go straight into rules. Any other interpretation(the first line being Fluff) would mean that Calgar has 0 Powerfists and the Gauntlets are just a gun. but the Second line(Being obvious rules) begins with "They also" and so therefore the first line must also be rules

Kommissar Kel wrote:Valkyrie: The Gauntlets have no Fluff in their rules; they go straight into rules. Any other interpretation(the first line being Fluff) would mean that Calgar has 0 Powerfists and the Gauntlets are just a gun. but the Second line(Being obvious rules) begins with "They also" and so therefore the first line must also be rules

Oops, I haven't looked through my Vanilla Marine Codex recently, I must have been thinking about the 4th Edition one, where it had quite a large portion of the Gauntlets' rules comprising of fluff. Thanks for the correction.

There really is no reason to think that any of the rules listed under the heading "special rules" would be fluff. There is also no reason to think that any of the rules under the heading "wargear" are fluff. This tells us that yes, the gauntlets are a pair of power fists. Pair = two....surprisingly enough since the name of the gear is plural this all works out well.

So yes, Calgar is armed with two power fists as well as his other items.


Sliggoth

However, having more than 2 special weapons, isn't he prohobited from ever getting an additional attack?

Slinky wrote:However, having more than 2 special weapons, isn't he prohobited from ever getting an additional attack?

correct

That is the core of the question...and the answer according to RAW is: its not covered.

There are rules for using two different ccws, however there are no rules about having or using MORE than two ccws. The rules so often quoted all discuss what happens when a model uses different mixes of two ccw.

So either we can decide for a model during cc which two weapons it will use, or else the situation simply isnt covered at all.



Sliggoth

Boils down to two options.
A) Models with 2 different special weapons never get a bonus attack
B) To use any of the "fighting with 2 single handed CCW" rules you must first pick two and then check the list.

Option 'A' of course never gets an extra attack; option 'B' may get the extra attack if the play uses two CCW that would give a bonus.

Oh and I think Gwar may be on 'holiday' since the 11th (see last post of "Avatar of Khaine vs Flamestorm Cannon") but is a believer in option 'A' ... Me I see 'B' as the only option.

I agree with option (B). It makes the most sense to me since the rules dont cover the option of having more than two ccw.

If the rules dont cover it, use the least advantageous option.

No extra attack.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I agree with option (B). It makes the most sense to me since the rules dont cover the option of having more than two ccw.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If the rules dont cover it, use the least advantageous option.

No extra attack.

I agree with nosferatu1001.

If there is a bona fide blurry area of the rules, which this is, always play the the weaker version. Otherwise you (look like you) are taking advantage of the rules.

If your opponent objects to that the game should have no issue, regardless.

Unless it's you.

Typically I tend to go the more conservative route but this is one case I feel should not be such a big deal since it's not that big of advantage. It's not something you run across a lot when gaming and I dont use any models armed as such so I'm giving the advantage to my opponent.

kirsanth wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I agree with option (B). It makes the most sense to me since the rules dont cover the option of having more than two ccw.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If the rules dont cover it, use the least advantageous option.

No extra attack.

I agree with nosferatu1001.

If there is a bona fide blurry area of the rules, which this is, always play the the weaker version. Otherwise you (look like you) are taking advantage of the rules.

If your opponent objects to that the game should have no issue, regardless.

Unless it's you.

Or you are necrons and need EVERY advantage you can get!

Devastator wrote:

Slinky wrote:However, having more than 2 special weapons, isn't he prohobited from ever getting an additional attack?

correct

Not exactly, Simply having 2 different ccw's means nothing, it matters what you are using/wielding in cc.

p.42
'Two different special weapons, when its their turn to attack, these models choose which weapon to use that turn...(Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)'

If you are not using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' how can you chose which weapon to use?

You have to be using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' to use the rules for such, a Power sword hanging at your hip has no bearing on the combat when you are wielding 2 Powerfists.

Except, as was pointed out, find the rules covering *3* CCw

Oh wait, there arent any. So, you have to choose how to play it: an advantage to you when you have no rules to back that up, or no advantage.

Additionally we've been through this - you still have to choose which weapon to actually use. Once you've chosen which weapon to use you hit the "never" clause.

Either way your "rules" arent correct.

He has a matched pair of Powerfists, so he has 6 attacks on the charge.

Look at his entry on Army Builder. It's much more reliable than this alleged "Rules Discussion Forum."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TRISKELION7 wrote:Yes but the gauntlets are a pair of power fists and it states that he gains an extra attack. He could use the power sword if he wants higher initiative. I think I've just figured out how it works, it's five on a charge with the power sword but six with gauntlets. Please state any reasons why you may think this incorrect.

You are correct.

MR - AB as a reliable source? Theyre pretty good, but have made some big errors in the past....

DeathReaper wrote:

Devastator wrote:

Slinky wrote:However, having more than 2 special weapons, isn't he prohobited from ever getting an additional attack?

correct

Not exactly, Simply having 2 different ccw's means nothing, it matters what you are using/wielding in cc.

p.42
'Two different special weapons, when its their turn to attack, these models choose which weapon to use that turn...(Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)'

If you are not using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' how can you chose which weapon to use?

You have to be using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' to use the rules for such, a Power sword hanging at your hip has no bearing on the combat when you are wielding 2 Powerfists.

And these are the rules for models equipped with these combinations of weapons, see the initial paragraph. Equipped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm............. Bottom line. Never means never. Did he have to choose between two different special weapons (ie does he have more than one type of special weapon)? Yes. That means never, the word you conveniently left out of the rules quote above.

As for no rules covering three or more weapons, I tend to disagree. After all, if you have three, you automatically have two. The extras don't change the rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MR - AB as a reliable source? Theyre pretty good, but have made some big errors in the past....

Be that as it may, I still find that they are correct more often than not.

The fact that he chooses not to use his power sword has no bearing as to how many fists he's using when he does make his attacks. Which is two.

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Devastator wrote:

Slinky wrote:However, having more than 2 special weapons, isn't he prohobited from ever getting an additional attack?

correct

Not exactly, Simply having 2 different ccw's means nothing, it matters what you are using/wielding in cc.

p.42
'Two different special weapons, when its their turn to attack, these models choose which weapon to use that turn...(Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)'

If you are not using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' how can you chose which weapon to use?

You have to be using/wielding 'Two different special weapons' to use the rules for such, a Power sword hanging at your hip has no bearing on the combat when you are wielding 2 Powerfists.

And these are the rules for models equipped with these combinations of weapons, see the initial paragraph. Equipped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm............. Bottom line. Never means never. Did he have to choose between two different special weapons (ie does he have more than one type of special weapon)? Yes. That means never, the word you conveniently left out of the rules quote above.

As for no rules covering three or more weapons, I tend to disagree. After all, if you have three, you automatically have two. The extras don't change the rule.

you left something out, it says 'equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat'

If you are not using the weapon it has no bearing on any of your attacks and you do not use the rules for a weapon you are not using.

You have to use a weapon to gain any benefit (or detriment) from it.

Simply being equipped with 3 weapons means nothing. as noted on p37 under number of attacks '... models with more than two weapons get no additional benefit'

Using/Wielding is everything.

Check what you are Using/Wielding then use the rules for that set of weapons.

6 A on the charge.

Simple.

I find hilarious that many of the proponents of "do not get attack even with 3 CCWs" never seem to bothered to ask GW what their stance on the matter is (given that GW is the producer of the game and henceforth their word is effectively that of "god").

That's just because they never respond with anything, or always respond differently... Ask them twice about any rule not covered good in rulebook, and you'll get two different answers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, here is how I take care of problems of rules that are not clarified.... If I play with something that needs clarification, I expect to play in a way that I don't get advantage of the rule (unless it's a rule like turret mounted flamers on vehicles can't fire flamer) and ask opponent if it's ok for him to get (in this example) extra attack... If opponent plays with something like that, I'd allow it unless it's something pretty stupid and overpowering (there was one dude that has put his skimmer over impassable terrain due to rules and said that now I can't assault him... It's win at all cost kind a guy and I hate playing with them... Rather I lose than have to play match full of arguing)....