Noting Unit Size: Ranks by Files?

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**Boss Salvage**

Can someone tell me how to correctly note the ranks ('X models deep') and files ('Y models wide') for a unit? Is it (ranks) x (files), or (files) x (ranks)? So a unit of 20 that is 5 wide and 4 deep, is that 5x4 or 4x5? I haven't been able to figure out which is right, and 8th has meant more weird unit sizes to note when batrepping, etc ...

Thanks

- Salvage

**HoverBoy**

I've seen it done (wide)x(deep) more often than (deep)x(wide). Then again i never mark my unit formation when building my list as that lets me free to change it accordingly to what i'm facing.

**Casper**

5x4 is 5 wide, 4 deep or at least thats how I've always read it.

**Red_Zeke**

+1 for the (wide) x (deep)

Don't know that I've ever seen it the other way.

RZ

**HoverBoy**

I think i have, then again i never pay proper attention.

**Boss Salvage**

Hmm. I was hoping for some (comp sci or something) engineer or mathematician to chime in and tell us the Scientific (TM) way to note what are essentially matrices. I just poked around some basic math tutorials on matrices and I'm getting row first, then column, which would mean (depth) x (width) in our terms. So a horde is 5x10, not 10x5 (and the difference in 8th is huge!).

My personal jury is still out if more people end up going with the reverse, maybe I'll keep searching for some technical standard that holds true across most disciplines. You know, like Warhammerology.

- Salvage

**boogeyman**

I thought you always plotted x first then y (x,y). So it would be (10,5) or 10x5. What do you think? Sorry, I am just pulling that out of my

**Boss Salvage**

ORC HORDE! This thing on matrices says otherwise, as do a few other places I found. Though as far as the coordinates of a single point, you're right.

- Salvage

**boogeyman**

Is that because the equation is written left to right?

I was looking through some site (can't find it again now

) and I think it would have described my ORC HORDE as having 5 ranks of 10 orcs. So I guess I have no idea what I am talking about, but I always knew that.

Sorry for not being any help.

**HoverBoy**

Boss Salvage wrote:ORC HORDE! This thing on matrices says otherwise, as do a few other places I found. Though as far as the coordinates of a single point, you're right.

As someone in a programming college i can tell you that the relation between rows and columns, and ranks and files, can be open to interpretation relative to perspective (curse you basis of information i seem to have learned something

)

**Leigen_Zero**

Yeah, when most 2-dimensional arrays (i.e. matrices) are used the order of accessing the individual cells is only relevant to the context of the program.

In warhammer case, it is definately ranks, then files, as otherwise the game system would not work so well, look in your rulebook, always refers to ranks, things are removed from the rear ranks, characters go in the front rank etc etc. Of course this is inferred (no sentence specifically states ranks X files), but I'm not sure if things work the other way around.

E.g. if a horde is 10 X 5, and we assume that means 10 ranks, 5 files, then statistically bolt throwers can now kill a hell of a lot more people than before, as can cannons. On the other side, hordes now attack in 3 ranks (15 attacks for a generic 1A model), and will be steadfast for pretty much the whole game.

**tinyturtle**

They can't just sit round in a circle? Why must it always be squares?

**Boss Salvage**

tinyturtle wrote:They can't just sit round in a circle? Why must it always be squares?

If you want circles you can have a swim around the rest of Dakka, particularly the Grimdark(er) parts. Down here we rock the square base

Welcome to Dakka, tiny amphibian

- Salvage

**Wehrkind**

I am pretty certain a horde for instance would be 10xY. I would also feel comfortable using this convention as it could be easily defended by pointing out "It is RANK and FILE. Rank first, then file, douche nozzle!" and cowing the dissenter into silence. I figure my chances of running into a math major with a strong opinion either way is pretty slim, and I can brow beat the less restrictive majors pretty effectively I'd wager

And turtles are reptiles, noob

Thinking about his point though, I wonder what the chances are that Empire or someone will get the ability to form a square in their next codex. That might be pretty cool, removing their flanks and rear while perhaps giving a small bonus to Ld or vs cav. There might well be a good niche for some armies (likely Empire as they are more tech advanced it seems and use spears/halberds) to be able to form specialty formations.