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there was recently a thread in the swap shop in which the poster offered nothing (including paying for shipping) and simply asked for people to send him free stuff. should this be allowed? my reasoning for saying no *technically* is that it doesn't correspond to any of the categories of posts allowed there per RAW (lol, i sound like gwar!)

yakface wrote:This forum is an informal meeting place to allow like-minded individuals who are looking to trade/buy/sell gaming related items to find each other.

it's not a trade as nothing is being offered as barter in return. it's not buying because he is explicitly stated he wants it for free. he's not selling because he's got nothing to offer. from a touchy-feely perspective, i simply don't like begging in the swap shop as it will encourage more as with other questionable type threads. as with "when is *fill in the blank* getting something new?" threads in news and rumors, one thread allowed to exist simply means that many more will arrive. i come to the swap shop to buy/sell/trade my unused gaming stuff and to deal with people who do likewise; allowing people that just want free stuff dilutes the usefullness of that subforum and you'll have to sift through even more chaff to find the good stuff and decreases the prestige of the website overall (just like begging in any circumstance does to a location, virtual or physical). if someone simply includes a "willing to take any free stuff from XX army" in their broader trade/sell/buy thread, i have no problem with that. it's simply the handout threads that i dislike.

I'm in agreement with everything Warboss just said.

This is a very expensive hobby and I don't see how people can just ask/beg for free stuff. If you can't afford to get into the hobby then don't it's that simple.

Does anyone have a link to this thread or are we just agreeing that begging in the trade forum is bad?

I once sent a dreadnought missile launcher arm to someone who asked if anyone had one.

Was he a bum?

From moderating the Swap Shop the last year and a half or so, this issue has come up maybe 2-3 times? In a similar vein, I've seen people offering things for free - would that be considered inappropriate by your rubric as well?

I understand why people would throw a fit about these kinds of threads, but really, they don't come up very often and usually don't amount to much. There was A LOT of hullaballoing about WoW accounts being traded here and how 'OMG EVERYONE IS GOING TO FLOOD THE SWAP SHOP WITH THESE THREADS'. In the end, those complaints/worries were without substance. Yes, the occasional thread pops up but it's not nearly as prolific as people suggested it would be.

Honestly, the BEST way to discourage these threads is to simply ignore the threads. Just as with any thread that doesn't interest you, simply skip over it and move on. Again, I understand the sentiment behind the concerns stated, but I feel like the problem is being blown out of proportion.

If it makes things better, while I don't mind seeing the threads go up, I'd be particularly harsher about allowing bumping of such threads (namely, I wouldn't tolerate it) as that would certainly be akin to begging. As with all things in the Swap Shop, if these types of posts DO become a problem, it's a quick matter of adjusting policies to prohibit them and delete them without mercy. As it is, these threads are not very prolific and are pretty innocuous and easy to look over.

The Dreadnote wrote:Does anyone have a link to this thread or are we just agreeing that begging in the trade forum is bad?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328344.page

but don't post there per the warning.

Ketara wrote:I once sent a dreadnought missile launcher arm to someone who asked if anyone had one.

Was he a bum?

see my OP. if all he wrote on the trade thread was "can i haz dreadz arm missle plees?" then, yes, he's a virtual bum. if he asked for one as part of a larger buy/trade/sell thread, then no. if he's a friend of yours online or IRL and simply asked you privately for one, then no.

I bet he listens to music for free on youtube too, the bastard.

Jin wrote: As with all things in the Swap Shop, if these types of posts DO become a problem, it's a quick matter of adjusting policies to prohibit them and delete them without mercy. As it is, these threads are not very prolific and are pretty innocuous and easy to look over.

so, what you're saying is that if we dakkites, as responsible dissenting virtual citizens, want the policies changed, we should all open up our own virtual christmas lists for Santa Klausdakka?

warboss wrote:i simply don't like begging in the swap shop as it will encourage more as with other questionable type threads.... i come to the swap shop to buy/sell/trade my unused gaming stuff and to deal with people who do likewise; allowing people that just want free stuff dilutes the usefullness of that subforum and you'll have to sift through even more chaff to find the good stuff and decreases the prestige of the website overall (just like begging in any circumstance does to a location, virtual or physical). if someone simply includes a "willing to take any free stuff from XX army" in their broader trade/sell/buy thread, i have no problem with that. it's simply the handout threads that i dislike.

I 100% agree with warboss. I am by no means rolling in cash atm, but I'm still offering models or other items (and yes, occasionally cash) for what I want in return. As a long time hocker, trader and son of a salesman, the idea of begging on this site is kind of embarrassing. As the saying goes, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." - If you want something, you should be willing to give something back. I don't care if you say -

[H]table lamps, poker chips, manga, HP printer, assorted dice, coffee mugs, food stamps [W] Dark Elves, cash

- AT LEAST YOU'RE TRADING!

edit: didn't need the link to the page in question.

Before we all get completely outraged, let's remember:

Jin wrote:[In] the last year and a half or so, this issue has come up maybe 2-3 times?

warboss wrote:so, what you're saying is that if we dakkites, as responsible dissenting virtual citizens, want the policies changed, we should all open up our own virtual christmas lists for Santa Klausdakka?

Because obviously, that's the mature and level-headed approach to things. It's not like the Moderators can't discern when people are being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious.

The Dreadnote wrote:Before we all get completely outraged, let's remember:

Yeah, but I recall those times and thinking the threads were in bad taste - I just didn't have the go-get'em attitude to make a thread here to voice my opinion (as I'm sure you can tell by my post count, I'm kinda just a swap shop monkey and a lurker for the most part). This *is* an issue though, just like the WoW accounts... I kinda wish the establishment would do more than say "Well, it sucks, but since it only happens a little bit, we'll brush it under the rug."

My point is I like Dakka because its kinda my one-stop shop for news, interesting opinions (I like reading about what people think on here) and trading. If I wanted to just do trading, I'd go to Roguemarket or Bartertown... but I like Dakka's content. However, I also don't think Roguemarket or Bartertown would take a [W]something[H]nothing post seriously (roguemarket or bartertown representatives correct me if I'm wrong).

edit: Also just wanna clarify that I'm not gonna ragequit or anything - I just think this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. /clarifyingmyposttone

Jin wrote:

warboss wrote:so, what you're saying is that if we dakkites, as responsible dissenting virtual citizens, want the policies changed, we should all open up our own virtual christmas lists for Santa Klausdakka?

Because obviously, that's the mature and level-headed approach to things. It's not like the Moderators can't discern when people are being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious.

it's a joke (hence the smiling ork at the end). sigh...

edit:

but, in all seriousness, why should my H: nothing W: something list be deleted when others get to keep theirs? either something is against the swap shop's policies or it's not. it's shouldn't be against them for CERTAIN people and ok for others.

RAW vs RAI.

To put it simply, as the SwapMods, we get to rely on our own discretion as to what is and isn't covered by the rules. If it ever became a serious problem, we would no doubt come down on it like a ton of bricks. However, in the interests of giving Swapshop users a certain leeway (to ask for components and whatnot), we're not going to do that whilst threads like these only occur once in a blue moon.

So if we noted you spammed WANT: STUFF HAVE: NOTHING threads every week, we'd have you barred from the Swapshop and possibly the site, simply because we'd believe you contributed nothing conducive, and much that was annoying. Conversely, if you did it once unintentionally, we'd let it slide. It basically falls down to individual Mod discretion. However, on anything like this, we discuss it privately, so as to establish a reasoned, and democratic conclusion.

If you believe that we are all in the wrong on an issue (such as this one), then you would of course, be well within your rights to appeal to the highest court of authority (Yakface).

Exactly... we have to interpret whether a thread is legitimate or not, and 9/10, we give people the benefit of the doubt.

Honestly though, warboss, if you were to post such a thread after voicing your opinions against it so strongly here, I would personally be suspicious of its' legitimacy.

Obviously, it's a judgement call, and we always talk these things over and come to a consensus on policies such as this and when they need tweaking.

Also just to clarify- my intent in asking people to post up a N&B thread about this issue was to have a serious discussion on the validity of such threads (if people so desired). There's no need to make it personal. Using language such as "bum" to refer to people quickly takes the discussion down that road, however...

I've sent and received bits to complete strangers. I'm sending a metal model that I don't need to someone I've never met this week even (had already worked it out before this issue came up). And (albiet a friend) just sent me a whole box of nid bits for free last week... I don't think any of this makes me a "bum". So, imho, it'd be best to avoid that language in order to make the issue that you want to discuss not get lost in the noise that that type of language can cause.

Just my $0.02, of course! We do read these threads and can modify policies at any time... you will get the best results with well reasoned arguments to make your case, however! If you do a search you will find that these threads have been few and far between and caused very little trouble, so you need to refute that argument to make this concern look more valid / in need of action.

RiTides wrote:Also just to clarify- my intent in asking people to post up a N&B thread about this issue was to have a serious discussion on the validity of such threads (if people so desired). There's no need to make it personal. Using language such as "bum" to refer to people quickly takes the discussion down that road, however...

thread title changed. valid point (i just took the phrase directly from the thread in question).

RiTides wrote:
I've sent and received bits to complete strangers. I'm sending a metal model that I don't need to someone I've never met this week even (had already worked it out before this issue came up). And (albiet a friend) just sent me a whole box of nid bits for free last week... I don't think any of this makes me a "bum". So, imho, it'd be best to avoid that language in order to make the issue that you want to discuss not get lost in the noise that that type of language can cause.

no, you're not a bum as per my previous two statements on the issue. getting free stuff does not automatically equate to begging. as previously stated, its RAI vs RAW. i too have gotten free stuff from strangers but it was always something of small value in response to an add offering originally to pay for it. when the person offered to just mail me a decal sheet that i wanted to buy for free, i graciously accepted and left nice feedback as the only payment. that is totally different from asking people to send me whole models/units for no reason. even asking for whole models/units within reason from friends privately isn't bumming as that's a fringe benefit of family/friends. i just 2 months ago gave a friend the painted azrael that i had in my swap shop post for sale simply because he said he'd like one eventually. i don't consider that begging either.

to answer an earlier comment, i see no need to escalate this to anything higher as we're having a discussion just fine and dandy here. lego and yak frequent this corner of dakka and will chime in if needed or they feel its appropriate. i'm sure if we get a glut of grimdark panhandlers, they will pop in.

Hmmm

Have just come from a modelling forum where someone is sending me aircraft decals, gratis.
Someone is also sending me spares from Eire with no recompense for postage.

However, as a matter of courtesy I did offer payment, but so far people have always declined.
Also I have provided a similar service for others and declined offers of remuneration.
It seems to work really well on a principle of mutual goodwill.

Ketara wrote:If it ever became a serious problem, we would no doubt come down on it like a ton of bricks.

Just another point of clarification for me - I certainly don't want to see people get the banhammer for first time posters or anything like that, either - that'd be WAY too extreme. I just don't want to see the something for nothing threads up. As for PMing Yakface, I think that's well over our heads. You guys (the swapshop mods) are the ones that we go to... if he thinks its a big enough deal, I'm sure he'd comment on it.

I'll sum up my feelings here:

As a regular Swap Shop participant, I do not find thie thread in question to be offensive or a signal that we will get a flood of people begging for things.

The person was looking for some orks, knew it was a long shot, and took his chances anyway by posting that thread.

We are not a bartering and trade forum. We do have a subforum dedicated to such things. We do have some sense of decorum as there are limits to what we can trade and sell (miniatures must be included in some part of the deal).

For instance, we don't often get people here posting this:

[H]My immortal soul [W] Chaos Daemons {USA}

But is does meet a criteria that it:

A. Adheres to swap Shop posting guidelines.
B. Involves some sort of thing being offered.
C. Involves miniatures.

Even nothing is something, and if a person is so inclined to accept such an offer, then by all means try and complete the transaction.

Of course, all is subject to change by the whims of the SS Mod Gods, so who am I to voice my opinion?

There is only one mod that I know of that takes souls as payment: and he is somewhat evil.

These are good suggestions, however I think the idea of "begging" is also not what I have seen take place. There was a poster who put up a thread looking for single old / spare models to get some variety in painting things. He actually got some bites from what I could tell, simply from people who felt generous enough to donate a model or two.

I think the reason this particular post in the swap shop drew so much ire instead of generosity is that it was not very "polite". Usually people asking for something for free have the decency to do it nicely .

Again, I don't think this is akin to begging/panhandling at all, but to use an example- I had a person ask me for money who was actually holding out a pan handle! I guess some people found it funny and gave him some, but where I live (I was travelling at the time) people usually go about it a different way. So a lot of it is in presentation.

Anyway, this is getting kind of long, but my feeling on this is that as long as people are polite and do not do this often, it isn't something that we need to make a hard and fast rule about to prohibit such behavior. We're already having trouble making sure people are aware of the rules specific to our area of the forum (such as the 4-day bump limit, which is rather arbitrary and can only be discovered by actually reading the rules & guidelines thread thoroughly, and so may be overlooked by a new poster).

RiTides wrote:We're already having trouble making sure people are aware of the rules specific to our area of the forum (such as the 4-day bump limit, which is rather arbitrary and can only be discovered by actually reading the rules & guidelines thread thoroughly, and so may be overlooked by a new poster).

While it is arbitrary, it is a rule.

It is also a rule that even experienced Dakka-ites have broken but found out eventually.

Perhaps make the rule more prominent.

I was all ready to burn the OP to the ground, based, as I had assumed, on a 'please I need a meltagun/rokkit arm for a killa kan/tentacled genestealer head/wolfguard wolf helm' type request for a rarer or under represented bit of kit.

But no, OP is quite correct, this is just an open 'gimme stuff for free' post and the poster was entirely blaisé about posting it.

I say delete it and issue him with a warning. Or before you know it all manner of crafty gaks will be skulking about trying to beg minis and then sell them on ebay.

Curb it now.

MeanGreenStompa wrote: Or before you know it all manner of crafty gaks will be skulking about trying to beg minis and then sell them on ebay.

Curb it now.

This is the point that seems to be the crux of this discussion - just how much of any issue is this really?

Again, in my experience watching over the Swap Shop for the last year and a half, I've seen maybe 2-3 of these pop up. It really has not been a big issue in the past and I don't really see it being much of an issue in the future.

Could this change? Possibly. If it does, I'll certainly change my opinion of it. As it is, I really think this is an overblown problem in the minds of people. Oddly enough, if people don't want to give them free minis, they don't have to.

In any event, I assume we're bothering Lego with all the email updates he's likely getting from this discussion.

Jin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote: Or before you know it all manner of crafty gaks will be skulking about trying to beg minis and then sell them on ebay.

Curb it now.

This is the point that seems to be the crux of this discussion - just how much of any issue is this really?

Again, in my experience watching over the Swap Shop for the last year and a half, I've seen maybe 2-3 of these pop up. It really has not been a bit issue in the past and I don't really see it being much of an issue in the future.

Could this change? Possibly. If it does, I'll certainly change my opinion of it. As it is, I really think this is an overblown problem in the minds of people. Oddly enough, if people don't want to give them free minis, they don't have to.

In any event, I assume we're bothering Lego with all the email updates he's likely getting from this discussion.

So long as you don't intentionally endorse it or allow it to be done without reprimand, it should be fine.

Remember the decision to allow WoW accounts to be bartered? One person did it, and it spiked a few other Dakka-ites to do the same. It faded so now there is very little activity for virtual things to be traded.

This is not cool for online behavior. That being said, when I have extra bits, or my battlebuddies do, we sometimes bum them off each other... face-to-face...

necrongod wrote:anyone else want to offer anything?

lol, priceless. no thank you for what's already offered or anything other than another petition with an early bump (which i suspect is what got the thread closed).