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First off do you think they are even worth anything? If you use them what are good ways to utilize them? On a side note I know how veterans are cheaper, are scoring units, and have three special weapons and what have you...

they're ok but vets are better. the ability to spam special weapons on cheap basic troopers is one of the IG codices (many) strong points. AF

Only way I like them (even then I would make sure I'm full on vets or at least have a few large platoons) is suicide squad being 5 man, 2 meltas, and PP then DS them next to a land raider or something

I like to take 2 DS units, one with double melta to wipe out vehicles and one with either double plasma or flamer to roast a troop choice (dropping 2xplasma and 3 hellguns next to a marine squad means bye-bye marine squad). I have had trouble keeping them alive, but they almost always make their points back in the initial drop.

STT have on great advantage: flexibility

Your usual IG list will be pretty straight forward, with little to change no matter what you play against, whether you get first turn, etc.

Now come the STT. Suddenly you have Deep Strikers or Infiltrators in your list, or Outflank if you see fit. If you can see them this way, a minimal 5 with 2x Meltagun in a Chimera will be valuable in any tourny list.

5 Stormtroopers, 2 Meltaguns, and a Chimera. Depending on your foe, you:
-Infiltrate/deep strike, and loan their Chimera.
-Have them Scout up in support of an alphastrike.

Quite fun, really.

Deep Strike or Infiltrate is the *only* reason to use them, though, as otherwise vets are cheaper for the role of toting specials. Riding in a chim, vets are a better buy.

Basically, they are a suicide strike unit. Take 5 w/2x melta, ds and pop a tank. Points made- unless its a dakka pred ;-).

Double plasma often runs into the problem of cover minimizing the plasma and T4 making the hellguns less than optimal. Four plasma shots averages about 1 wiound to a squad in cover and 6 hellgun shots avg about 3 and 1/3 wounds or 1 and 2/3 after cover.

You're forgetting the threat of a HF Chimera with 2 Meltaguns driving right into the opponents deployment zone from a flank. Vets don't do that.
It will at least make him think twice about deployment when you're going second.

Stormtroopers are undertaken, yes vets come cheaper, but they are almost always in a Chimera to maximize their survivability. They certainly aren't cheap, but the cost goes into having AP3 weaponry and 4+ Armor. I like using them as my "get stuff done" unit, rarely do they not kill their points back.

So mostly they are used as suicide units. I agree they should only be used as deep strikers or infiltrators. 5 man squads, no more huh? Even in the chimera?

They killed a demon prince once, well, they mostly killed it, allowing one battle cannon shot to finish it off. I've had them DS right next to tanks and pop them and had them DS right next to tanks and spectacularly miss or fail to penetrate (yes, its possible). But thats rare, msotly down to my below average rolling.

They're fun, they add a random element to an otherwise pretty standard cookie cutter army.

They are in fact almost as cheap as Veterans.

5 ST+2 Melta+Chim=160
10 Vets+3 Melta+Chim =155

so you pay 5p for outflanking/scouting/infiltrating/deepstriking, AP3 guns, 1 more attack and the 4+ armour, you lose 1 meltagun, the ability to score and 5 men

now lets see:

Veterans:

1 meltagun more is well and good. It does not lift the odds to kill a vehicle to exceptionally better results.

Do 5 men with lasgun/shotgun add anything really helpful? No they dont. No useful weapons will be added, and 1 more casualty is required to reach the critical 25% break mark.

the ability to score is of course a big advantage. Point for the veterans, but: If they are a scoring unit and you use weapons that have an effective range of 6", you have to take care of them, otherwise you may suffer a critical loss. (1 meltavet squad is worth more than a landraider...)

Stormtroopers:

Their AP3 guns, are they useful? No they arent. You have to get past the Toughness of an opponent. Normally this opponent is quite tough, so the weapons is most unlikely to wound the target. Thats the reason why taking only 5 men. So AP3 does not help really.

1 more attack in close combat. Normally you dont want CC. In fact 5 Storm troopers in cc perform about as well as 10 veterans, due to the 4+ armour and the extra attacks. Veterans are easier to break due to casualties so ST hold their ground pretty good, but still CC is not preferred task.

4+ armour has any advantages? Yes! it decreases the casualty-ratio of bolterequivalents and flamers by 50%. This is an important thing, because flamers and bolters are the enemy of guard infantry apart from Close Combat. Especially flamer protection is very useful. point for storm troopers

Now a strange point: They are only 5 men strong. This is actually an advantage. You can hide the squad better from enemy actions (rapidfire, countercharges) and you dont suffer as many wounds from an exploding chimera. So being 5 men strong gets them actually more durable than being 10 men.

And the last decisive point in favour of the storm troopers: The ability to outflank inside a transport or deepstriking. so they can reach what no veteran squad will ever reach: The enemys backfield in turn 2 and the tasty targets for meltaguns for early takeouts. Against meltavet attacks the enemy can prepare himself. Against stormtrooper attacks he cannot. So meltavets have an action radius of 12" around their chimera+almost 3" disembarking+12" meltagun range. Outflanking stormtroopers have (in the turn they arrive) an action area of (12"+almost 3" disembark)x48"x2+12" meltagun range.

This results in them being able to target any unit in 2/3 of the whole table for one turn. Deepstriking storm troopers can reach any target on the table with the risk of being either killed by impassable terrain or scattered out of range. The second problem is that they are extremely vulnerable for counter actions.

So actually I vote for Stormtroopers. If I could use them as troops I would spam them

Okay, firstly, it's got to be said. DON'T COMPARE THEM WITH VETS. They have a completely different purpose for existence. Vets exist to score and do drive by's in a mass formation.

Stormies, on the other hand, are a harassment unit. This is because...

- they appear out of nowhere. Your opponents always get to shoot vets before the vets get to do anything. Given that stormies deepstrike with pinpoint accuracy or outflank with move through cover, this means that your opponent should NEVER be able to target your stormies before the stormies have killed something.

- they appear out of nowhere. Unlike vets, which your opponent always sees coming and can react in the movement phase to, stormies just pop up, like marbo. This means that, WAY more than vets, they allow you to punish your opponent for their mistakes. Your opponent can always move his tervigon away from your incoming plasma squads, but they're powerless to stop your stormies from putting three wounds on it before it's too late.

- they appear out of nowhere. It doesn't matter how fast your opponent is, or how they angle their vehicles to offer front armor, or how they arrange their troops to screen other units. They show up, and they assassinate their target in cold blood, and in a timely manner. Just when you find that you need some help in a pinch, there they are, raining plasma or popping a dreadnought or taking down a wraithlord. The rest of your units just have to hope they make it there in time.

- they stay obnoxious, even after their first go. Because, really, stormies keep on raining the death every turn that your opponent doesn't kill them, and, given that they show up out of nowhere, it's much more likely that there are several sensitive targets wherever they landed. This makes them a target priority. Fortunately for the stormies, they don't fall like dominoes to bolter fire, and they can actually reasonably stand their own against injured units in close combat thanks to the carapace.

Vets are an infantry platoon that fits in a single chimera. Stormies are a harassment unit that strikes fear into your opponent and it keeps on striking fear until your opponent diverts firepower away from everything else just to kill them.

I tried them out for the first time since the new guard codex came out in my most recent game, and they definitely earned their keep. I look forward to continue using them in the future.

Ailaros

I always thought you were the kind of guy who wouldn't use Stormtroopers. Great looking battle report and army btw, those Ogryns are a neat conversion.




They're not supposed to be the backbone of an army, but a wild card, a unit that can cause lots of havoc to any well organized plan. Harrying someone's flank is always nice, plus having pistols allow some mobile fire in a pinch.

why wouldn't I like stormies?

I mean, they are a 43% inefficient way to field some special weapons, but the delivery definitely makes up most of the gap.

I guess I'd be less likely to use them if they were going to be used all alone, but it's easy to use them in a coordinated way with other units (Marbo blows something up with a demo charge, and the stormies pick off the survivors, for example).

Plus, unlike most other harassment units, they can actually be seriously deadly (unlike, say, sentinels, or penal legionnaires or PBSs, which require very certain circumstances).

Maybe I am confusing you with somene else who was hellbent against Stormtroopers. Sorry for that.

I like units of 10 with 2 plasmaguns. Can drop down and ruin a Tactical Squad's day. They also aren't god-awful in assault. Yes their a point inefficient way to fit more special weapons into the list, but their ability to drop from the sky wherever they are needed is totally worth it.

I've been seriously against Storm Troopers for a while, for the usual "veterans are better" reasons. However, I just moved my army from 1500 to 1850. At 1500, all of my FA and HS slots were full, and with three Vets squads in chimeras, the thought of adding another was boring.

I turned to Stormtroopers, and was pretty impressed their effectiveness at deepstriking with Meltas. I definitely want to try them in Chimeras, for the outflanking/scouting possibilities. Their sheer flexibility that way is really, really tempting.

@ElCheezus

I turned to Stormtroopers, and was pretty impressed their effectiveness at deepstriking with Meltas. I definitely want to try them in Chimeras, for the outflanking/scouting possibilities. Their sheer flexibility that way is really, really tempting.

Nice to hear, that someone actually tried/s stormtroopers. The comparison with veterans is older than the "new" codex. And even in the last codex, I am sure, storm troopers were better.
And I run meltavets as well as stormtroopers.
Concerning damage, the storm troopers always perform better, but this is because they are in the middle of the enemy forces. Veterans tend to kill one isolated thing and then retreat to score.
So they have a quite different job.

@Ailaros

Vets exist to score and do drive by's in a mass formation.

Well, if I was the veteran player, I would not sacrifice my scoring units bunched up in a spearhead attack (unless I have some sort of combined arms effect -> meltaing down a transport and then killing what is inside in the same turn)
But maybe it is my mentality. Throwing away units always disgusts me, although sometimes it is necessary

are you using vets by giving them a heavy weapon and just sitting there? If so, god bless, because I wouldn't if I were your opponent. If you're using special weapons (like you should), then you're driving towards your enemy.

Melta hedges are a liability to transport lists, regardless of how you use your transports.

Of course, if you're against putting your troops in danger, lest they be considered "throwaway", then stormies probably aren't for you (neither is the imperial guard...)

I'm thinking of running a ST squad 10-man with power sword, meltagun and flamer. It's certainly goes against the general rule of thumb to specialize squads, but I want to take advantage of their versatility. After all they are armed with hellgun, hellpistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades, carapace armour, they can deepstrike, scout or outflank. It's quite a list and I want to see what they can get away with.

My ideas for using the above squad are as follows:

*Outflanking next to a shooty squad such as Long Fangs, shooting them (with pistols instead of rifles) and then charging the squad in CC. A 10-man squad has 31 attacks on the charge with carapace armour, while fire support squads tend to not possess HtH upgrades. Even space marines will probably struggle. This is largely why they have the flamer instead of a second meltagun, I think in order to make an assault feasable against some targets (such as Lootas) they might need a good flamer burst.

*Hunting static tanks. They could outflank next to a tank and shoot it with the meltagun, if that fails they can follow up with krak grenades (which is why I'd prefer to target static vehicles). Given that they only have a single meltagun and most of the squads weaponry is tied up in anti-infantry stuff however, this is a distinctly secondary role. I foresee them doing this against a vehicle that is trying to hide itself from the bulk of my army (Whirlwind), or something that would be a pain to take on frontally (Leman Russ at the back of the table behind a screen of infantry, are they man enough to do a commando raid on it?).

*Counter-attack. They will deepstrike next to a vulnerable enemy unit with the aim of disrupting my opponent's attack strategy. It's probably a suicide mission, but since I also have several other aggressive squads in my army (including chimera vets) I'll be able to support them and make a good go of it. This will be particularly helpful against toughness 3 armies with elite troops, less so against MeQ.

In some of these cases they will be distinctly mediocre at what they're trying to do, but that's the price they pay for being generalists. I think they add a somewhat scary, unpredictable element to my otherwise frontal shooting gallery of a guard army. It might be an enjoyable challenge to get the most out of them. The main problem I see with them is that they might not be particularly helpful against some mechanized armies.

The thing is, though, that they do all three of these things regardless of how you arm them. They even do these things if you arm them horribly wrong (like you have).

Why not give them a fourth little asterisk that represents doing something that they can actually do well if you give them a matched pair of special weapons?

A second meltagun may well be a better option than a flamer actually, their anti-tank is a bit lacking and thus their versatility.

Ah, after all this time finally some love for the other IG elites. In certain builds (like yours Ailaros) they are valuable support. Great job also with the Ogryns in your reports, as I have always maintained they are also excellent for short ranged fire support.

i like them outflanking in a chimera and just rapid fire AP3 lasguns, or melta a tank. i play a lot of SM players, so laying down 20 AP3 shots is nice, def against those pesky devs in the back or a unit holding an objective.

are you using vets by giving them a heavy weapon and just sitting there? If so, god bless, because I wouldn't if I were your opponent. If you're using special weapons (like you should), then you're driving towards your enemy.

Melta hedges are a liability to transport lists, regardless of how you use your transports.

Of course, if you're against putting your troops in danger, lest they be considered "throwaway", then stormies probably aren't for you (neither is the imperial guard...)

Haha, heard that too often

Why do you have to drive straight forward? This is completely unnecessary, because the opponent will meet you in the middle of the table anyways. So You can keep well hidden and pose a threat to the enemy. This is often sufficient to keep them away from important spots on the field. But you dont need to expose your units in any form unless you are at the losing point or a very tasty target appears that HAS to be killed at all costs.
And just because this mentality I like stormtroopers, because they are really sneaky and tough as nails in an infight.
But veterans first job is to score, bonus job is to kill. Fighting elements should be stormtroopers, CCS and long range weaponry. So the enemy has a long way to go to your important units.
If I was blasphemous, I would say, that veteran special weapons are not very important, you could play them barebone with not much a crippling effect on your army.
But having a mobile reserve is always a pleasing backup.

No meltas are not the key of transport armies. tank shock, 12" movement, smoke launchers and support fire from the heavy support section is the key. And special weapons are lategame weapons, so they dont hamper your manoeuvering. And they are again a pleasing card you can play when things get dire.

Just relying on mass melta firepower is quite stuffy in my opinion.

@Mukip

*Outflanking next to a shooty squad such as Long Fangs, shooting them (with pistols instead of rifles) and then charging the squad in CC. A 10-man squad has 31 attacks on the charge with carapace armour, while fire support squads tend to not possess HtH upgrades. Even space marines will probably struggle. This is largely why they have the flamer instead of a second meltagun, I think in order to make an assault feasable against some targets (such as Lootas) they might need a good flamer burst.

You will lose this combat. Long fangs are a very bad example... If you charge them you will most likely recieve 15 S4 attacks (in case of 5 long fangs) against your T3 4+ save before delivering you S3 attacks against T4 3+ save. This not going to end well for you (about 1:3 ld -2 means 6 run -> dead)

*Hunting static tanks. They could outflank next to a tank and shoot it with the meltagun, if that fails they can follow up with krak grenades (which is why I'd prefer to target static vehicles). Given that they only have a single meltagun and most of the squads weaponry is tied up in anti-infantry stuff however, this is a distinctly secondary role. I foresee them doing this against a vehicle that is trying to hide itself from the bulk of my army (Whirlwind), or something that would be a pain to take on frontally (Leman Russ at the back of the table behind a screen of infantry, are they man enough to do a commando raid on it?).

This relies on an opponent exposing a flank pretty badly. And still a whirlwind is not nearly worth your stormtroopers and 5 man do better, and what do you do if the single melta fails? You will be charged down and 10 men are lost. Too many ifs if you ask me

*Counter-attack. They will deepstrike next to a vulnerable enemy unit with the aim of disrupting my opponent's attack strategy. It's probably a suicide mission, but since I also have several other aggressive squads in my army (including chimera vets) I'll be able to support them and make a good go of it. This will be particularly helpful against toughness 3 armies with elite troops, less so against MeQ.

This seems to be more valid, but still suicidal and vulnerable to counter actions and dependent on success in the first go.

The main problem I see with them is that they might not be particularly helpful against some mechanized armies.

take 5 men, a second melta and a chimera, you will deliver a threat to mech and infantry at the same time, you have a better flamer, you add mobility, a heavy weapon and armour and you pay less

I used them for my first time today. A squad of 5 + 2 melta guns ran at 105 points, they earned their keep, IMO. Blew up a Bassie that was harassing me to no end.

Their Airborne Assault rule is what I like. A cheap, effective suicide unit that stays a threat if not dealt with is great.

Someone should write a tactica on how to *not* use them like vets. You use them like Brit commandos in CoH, drop them where next to the target, the target dies. (Usually they die as well)

Why is it most guard players like fluff guard commanders and can't see the scalpel option? I guess people have a tendancy to play like their army.

grobbicull wrote:dropping 2xplasma and 3 hellguns next to a marine squad means bye-bye marine squad

Lies, you would average 3.5 kills with that set-up, or less than 60 points worth of dudes. In return, the remnant of that squad will have no issues annihilating 5 stormtroopers that cost you over 100 points.

Actually, the marine squad that you dinged will only kill about half the squad with bolter fire thanks to carapace.

Next turn, the plasma fires again and kills another couple making it 90 points that you killed with a 105 point squad.

Plus, no matter what grobbicull hopes for, full-strength tac squads aren't stormies' best targets anyway. They're there to punish your opponent for mistakes they make in the movement phase, not to charge forward at the front of the horde and soften things up.

As for how not to use stormies like vets, that's a rather easy one. Vets exist to score, and do damage while they're at it. They work like regular infantry where you keep them concentrated and support them with other units.

Stormies exist for the same reason Marbo does, to show up out of nowhere and put the serious hurt down on something. They're a harassment unit, not a troops unit. They exist solely to punish your opponent for doing foolish stuff, or for showing up and bailing out a part of your own force that you used foolishly.