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I've decided to come back to playing after a long time, and I'm starting slow with my friends with 500 points army that should work as they are and serve as a base for future, larger armies.

so far I have come up with three ideas:

List 1 (498)-

HQ:
Reclusiarch (130)

Troops:
Death Company (4 marines) (80)
Tactical (10 marines) with Rocket launcher and Flamer (170)
Assault (6 marines) (118)

List 2 (498)-

HQ:
Reclusiarch (130)

Troops:
Death Company (4 marines) with Rhino (130)
Assault (6 marines) (118)

Heavy:
Devastator (5 marines) with 3 rockets (120)

List 3 (493)-

HQ:
Reclusiarch (130)

Troops:
Death Company (4 marines) with Rhino (with hunter missile) (140)
Assault (6 marines) (118)

Heavy:
Dreadnought (105)

Which list would be better?

first one is actually the first I thought of. it should be pretty flexible, tactical would be split up in two, one team with flamer and other with rockets. reclusiarch and death company go together for the buffs. this army might be slow (only assault has jetpacks, no vehicles) and light on anti tank, but at 500 points these might not be big issues. I'm not sure how useful the tactical would be going forward, I might need it anyways for objective taking.

second list was made to give a rhino to the reclusiarch + death company, so the tactical was cut and I use a 5 man devastator team with rockets for added firing punch. this sould speed up the assault and actually gives me a stronger fire support but with fewer shots and marines.

third list was an idea made up to use the dread that came from aobr as antitank instead of the devastators. it should be pretty tough to deal with at 500 points and I could use it even in bigger armies (along with a furioso, or is a regular dreadnought a complete waste when you could field two furiosos?). the hunter killer missile on the rhino is there because I didn't know what to do with the extra points and it gives me an extra shot I can use from long range if needed, as I don't have any other long range weapon.

thanks in advance for any suggestions. as I said this army should serve primarily as a base for future improvements.

DC are a big waste in the BA codex. They only become some what viable at higher point games because you can give them the support they need to be fully dangerous. With that in mind. I would try and play to the BA strengths.

At 500 Pts, I play this:
-Libby w/ JP
-Sang Priest w/ JP
- 6 ASM w/ PF, Melta
- 6 ASM w/ PW, Melta

It has done fairly well so far. IG are the only real issue, but with DoA I am able to almost drop right on his tanks, or right behind them. The Sang Priest is crucial! He will keep your numbers up from shooting until you can reach assault. Also his FC just makes your ASM that much more deadly. This is a good core for starting a JP BA army, which is what I play. So you also need to think long terms about where/how you want to play this army. BA generally break down into JP or Mech. Some players do a mix of both, but it is not as efficient as pure.

thanks for the advice.

I will try out your list too. I haven't yet decided which way to go long term, I want to play a few games first, I have around 10-15 asm a few dc models and a couple rhinos together with some other leftover marines from the past (tacs, some terminators, some missile launchers).

so I should be able to try out a couple setups before making a commitment and buy new stuff.

a couple more noobish questions: I have seen assault terminators are pretty popular, is this not the case with BA, even with a mech build and putting them on land raiders?

or I could see them on drop pods/deep strike with JP units.

are there too many better units for these builds rather than terminators? do regular dreads have a use for the BA, or is the furioso just better (even if it eats up an elite slot)?

rex303 wrote:
a couple more noobish questions: I have seen assault terminators are pretty popular, is this not the case with BA, even with a mech build and putting them on land raiders?

or I could see them on drop pods/deep strike with JP units.

are there too many better units for these builds rather than terminators? do regular dreads have a use for the BA, or is the furioso just better (even if it eats up an elite slot)?

Generally for BA, Assault Terminators, if used, need an LR to be effective. DoA a LR full of Ass. Terminators is great! I would generally include them in an army of 2k pts. I personally never play above 1500, so I don't use/see them much. Terminators are alot of points and require the proper support (LR) to be efficient, thus they become a point sink, roughly 450 between the Terminators and their Land Raider.

I personally prefer the Furioso Dreads. They have higher WS, and just tear things apart in assault. Also with the BT, they can easily rip a whole horde in half. Some BA players fill their Elite slots with Riflemen Dreads. These Dreads generally have 2x TL AO. These are the primary HS choice of many Mech/JP BA Armies. I personally stay away from them, utilizing the Furioso with BF in DPs as my Anti-Tank.

If you are going to use Dreads, just make sure you can support them. I generally run 2 Furiosos in DPs. I also try to put another squad in a DP so my Dreads can come in together. So as a rule of thumb if you are going to use any DPs use ATLEAST 3 or more to make the list effective. Turn 1 my opponent has to deal with two dreads, then I DoA right on my enemy. It works for me, I love the CC.

thanks for the advice.

I'll try out the three lists tomorrow against a friend of mine, so I will feel them out a bit.

I'll then try to understand what strategy I feel more, I think I will use a furioso and a regular dread in DPs (and maybe a DC in DP) going forward, but I don't like the idea of an army only made up by jump/DP troops.

on paper I would like a flexible army, with some transported troops, some DPs/JP and some heavy weapons (maybe a single Dev squad in two combat groups).

since I will not play really high points (I don't expect armies larger than 1500, that's also what tournaments are played at here) I'll surely tweak the list going on. I also already have various terminators that I could adapt to CC, so I could consider using them in a DP along the terminators and keeping a DC in a Rhino along with some RAS and some heavy fire. how would that work?

Well the issue with the DC is their Rage. Once that Rhino is popped, you can pretty much consider the DC ineffective. An opponent can easily control their movements from their.

The issue with having your armies priorities all over the place is that the synergy of the force is compromised. I understand wanting to have different units do different things, but you need to make sure that each unit compliments another.

From what you have said, I think a Mech force is the way for you to go. JP is not for everyone, I love CC, and getting in my opponents face ASAP. Mech gives a more balanced approach, allowing to either rush forward, or even castle up and gunline it.

http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/2010/11/as-requested-my-mechanicon-gt-winning.html

^Check out that link for a great BA blog, he specifically ran a BA army list with awesome results.

thanks for the link.

so in a mech list JP assault squads have no place at all?

Well you can use them if you like, although with most BA lists it is generally one or the other. I personally avoid it myself just because it causes too much of a tactical headache in regards to moving and shooting.

I don't think any SM dex (except SW) is competitive on 500pts... Whatever you put in there, opponent will most likely have better... Sad, but true

mmm..

what about 1k points?

I don't think I'll go over that soon.

this army doesn't really have to be super competitive as it is, but it must serve as a starting point for a larger army. I would like to take it slowly toward a 1k point army and then a 1500 point army.

those combinations I listed are pretty much made with stuff I already own (not all of it, and not all the stuff I have really fits BA as they now are), which is surely a bonus. but I plan on expanding on one of those builds (or on the build suggested by madmaverick76).

so which of those would be a better starting point for a future army?

Well, 1000pts is now ok... Still, not too good for most SM armies, but is playable... I think you should concentrate on that pts cap rather than on 500pts ( I mean, opponent puts on the table 2x25 boyz and warboss... What the hell can you do with BA?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ: 125
Librarian (blood lance, sanguine sword, jump pack): 125

ELITES: 150
2xSanguinary priest (jump pack): 150

TROOPS: 470
10x Assault marines (PF, 2x meltagun):235
10x Assault marines (PF, 2x meltagun):235

HEAVY SUPPORT: 240
Dreadnought (2xTL autocannon): 120
Dreadnought (2xTL autocannon): 120

TOTAL: 985

Must say I'm no expert on BA, but I'd go this way... Don't know about powers, though... sword would be my option, but don't know how good is lance...

well then let's draw up a 1000 point list and I'll just start with half the stuff, that was the idea anyways.

I would actually look for a list that could easily develop in a "final" 1500 point army, which is the tournament size around here.

I'm now looking at some builds, at these points the reclusiarch seems like a good hq, either with transport or JP, and a librarian seems like a good choice for a future second HQ.

I would really like to use the DC because I like them, but I'm not sure of their effectiveness in armies of this size (putting them in as soon as the starting nucleus shows how much I like them, and I already have those models). would they have a place as a small unit that can roll with the chaplain for some punch? I don't mean to use a large DC, maybe just 4+chaplain in a transport.

what other units are useful other than assault troops with JP/razor/rhinos/DP? I would look to Dreads or devastators (a small unit or a large one split up with 4 heavy weapons, either 4 missile or 2 missile/2lascannons) for AT, aong wih maybe fitting assault teams with meltas or maybe going with a couple bikes with meltas.

as I understand terminators with or without transportation are pretty much out of the question with these kind of caps, right?

edit: sorry, wrote that before you posted the list, will check that out immediately, thanks.

edit2: that looks like a good list. I'm not convinced about the two dreads, but I will test that approach going forward. I have also seen bikes with meltas used as antitank, are they any good?

I just played in an 850 pt tournament and did quite well with a list most people (including myself) would think to be horrible.

Reclusiarch
5 death company 1x thunder hammer
Razorback

8 Assault Marines 1x power fist, 1x meltagun w/ jump packs

Death Company Dreadnought w/ blood talons

Baal Predator w/ assault cannon and heavy bolters

This list is sort of all over the place, but it seemed to work well for me, and was quite fun. I tabled a space wolf player and almost tabled a tyranid player. I drew against another blood angels player because of tactics.

I really like the death company as well, and setup is key to units with Rage. None of my opponents did a good job kiting my units though. One thing to remember, is that the unit must move toward the nearest unit, but doesn't have to shoot it or assault it. With strategic positioning, you can maneuver to a better spot (as long as you are still as close as you can get) so you can assault or shoot at whatever you want.

I may try a 3 drop pod army (2 dreads and death company) along with deep strikers, but the next tournament is 1000 pts, and that might be too low points.

For 500 points? My preferred Blood Angels build at 500 points is this:

Librarian w/ Jump Pack
Assault Squad w/ 2 Melta Guns, 1 Power Weapon
Scout Squad w/ 9 Sniper Rifles, 1 Missile Launcher

You get 2 - 4 Scoring Units.
You get Tank Hunters and Assault Monkeys in the same unit.
You get a good fire-support team that can Infiltrate and bring down high-toughness units, pin units, and even threaten light armor.

At 500 points you can't afford to waste your resources on small smatterings of expensive units that don't even count as scoring. Yes, I'm talking about you, Death Company.

- Marty Lund

Yea, death company is quite useless due to the rage special rule but I would try to make full use of the blood angels furioso dreadnought.

HQ-Captain+power weapon = 115pts
Troops-Tactical squad+additional 5 men+lascannon+flamer+power weapon = 195 (combat tactics)
Elites-Furioso dreadnought+blood talons = 125
Dedicated transport - Drop pod x2 = 70 points

the second combat squad with lascannon sits in back shooting any armoured vehicles while the rest comes down in drop pods behind enemy line.

really like these suggestions.

I've played a few games and had some success running this:

librarian
tactical (ten men, flamer, ML)
dreadnought (MM/CCW, good on a small field, cheap)
assault squad (6 strong)

also I tried out some scouts (sniper rifles and a HB) and found them quite useful (the HB not really, but the rifles have shown some potential). I really like their special rules, and they might be a good fit with a deepstriking army (and they are cheap).

the DC + reclusiarch also proved pretty tough to deal with, as the enemy usually doesn't have lots of units/special weapons to deal with them. and even if they get heavy fire that usually gives me a free pass with the rest of the army.
but this is also because we are playing these games on pretty small tables to make them quick.

I had a question now: is a librarian in terminator armor a waste? he ends up costing as a reclusiarch and gets an invulnerable save (whic I really miss for him). also he may deepstrike even if not as well as a a DoA JP. I also thought of running him with a 5 an terminator squad with assault cannon as a tough unit to deepstrike and target specific units, obviously in higher point lists.

Libby in termie armor are good, but generally you want to keep your libby's bare bones. Also they have Sanguinius Shield which gives them a 5++ as well as anyone within their bubble. I generally give my Libby's JP's to make them more mobile and get them into CC, but it all depends on how you deck your libby's out in terms of skills.

Also in regards to what you are playing, it seems that you may want to look into the Vanilla SM Codex instead of the BA codex. The BA pay a bit more for certain units, and unless you are going to take full advatantage of either the Assault Troops or the Fast vehicles their isn't much of a reason to stick with BA, but this is just a suggestion.

you're right.

I'll go with a jump list, I have found some nice ones around here and I like infantry more than mech.

I'll keep the other stuff I already have around and I might do a small regular sm army with those just for fun.