Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

it seams that the rules a bit fuzzy, has anyone had this problem crop up?

Whats the problem?

You cant declare charges if you move in the compulsory movement phase....

The rules for 8th edition random movement are much more defined than 7th. We'd need a specific example to try to understand where you are having difficulties.

ok here is the problem im seeing if you read random movement in the special rules section it says that you do not need to declare a charge if your movement brings you into contact with an enemy if your movement is randm. 2d6 3d6 etc. its an automatic charge if it happens. however in the charge rules t states that you must always declare a charge. so wheres the problem? read both sections and tell me what you think.

Random movement is an exception to the charge rules. Within the rules for random movement you are told how to work out a charge that occurs due to a random movement.

"If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range."

This means that if the move takes you into contact with an enemy, you now count as if you had charged.

"Charge reactions cannot be declared against enemies with the Random Movement special rule"

This covers Stand and Shoot, and Flee. Pg. 17 tells you that those are the only 2 types of charge reactions you can make.

If you cannot make one of those you must hold.

The only potential problem would be if a random movement brought you into contact with a unit that is already fleeing. In this case, they would not be allowed to flee from this charge, and would be wiped out. At least thats how I see it RAW.

thats my thinking as well. thanks for confirming.

Additionally, it's good to note that if your random movement model causes terror, you do not cause terror checks on the charge (the bottom of the terror rule covers this).

So, basically, pick a direction, roll the dice, and anything you bump into you charge.

Also note that you follow the normal rules for charging, so once reach and touch an enemy (who can only hold), you have to line up on the proper arc, and maximize contact as much as possible.

On hitting an already broken unit, it all depends on what part of the poorly written rulebook you are reading. One part says hold is a charge reaction, another part says that the unit cannot choose a reaction and holds.
I'm inclined to believe that random movement charge = death for fleeing units; followed by a leadership test for free reform.

-Matt

id have to check the rulebook at home but i think your right.

Matt, which part says that holding is a charge reaction. The only thing I could find in the BRB was the section on page 17. Maybe I am missing something.

"The response your unit makes when a charge is declared is referred to as a charge reaction. As your opponent declares a charge, you can declare a charge reaction for your charged unit. There are two types of charge reaction: Stand and Shoot and Flee! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold"

Random movement says that your opponent may not make a charge reaction.

"A Flee! reaction is not always voluntary - units that are already fleeing must declare a Flee! reaction" - This is in reference to being charged again (pg. 17 under Flee!)

According to the Flee! rule, fleeing again is still a reaction. Random movement says you may not make a reaction. You cannot flee.

Does this apply to a stupidity movement as well? I was under the impression it was an automatic charge with no charge reaction possible other than to hold, but I couldn't find where it was written.

Lehnsherr wrote:Matt, which part says that holding is a charge reaction. The only thing I could find in the BRB was the section on page 17. Maybe I am missing something.

"The response your unit makes when a charge is declared is referred to as a charge reaction. As your opponent declares a charge, you can declare a charge reaction for your charged unit. There are two types of charge reaction: Stand and Shoot and Flee! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold"

Ah, you are correct. The section I was thinking of refers to "Must choose to hold as a reaction"; but holding isn't a "Charge Reaction". It's pretty well spelled out in bold right under "Charge Reaction". You hold, OR you perform a charge reaction.

Have I mentioned the lay out of the rule book is craptastic?

-Matt

Does this apply to a stupidity movement as well? I was under the impression it was an automatic charge with no charge reaction possible other than to hold, but I couldn't find where it was written

Unfortunately, it does not.

Pg. 76 "A unit that fails its stupidity test immediately stumbles D6" directly forwards. This move is otherwise treated in exactly the same manner as a failed charge. The stupid unit cannot take any further action that turn, so cannot declare charges or make a shooting attack."

So this is not technically part of the "Random Movement" rule. If you fail stupidity, you aren't doing a whole lot that turn.

*Edited for spelling

for stupidity it counts as a failed charge,

the rules for failed charge explicitly state you stop 1" from enemy units. so you can not charge and engage while being stupid.

This is a change from 7th ed, where you COULD stupid-charge.

They obviously decided that even stupid enough to blinbly blunder forward still wasnt stupid enough to wander onto somebodies sword....

Seems like with the random movement it would be possible to contact someone but still not be able to complete a charge. If you roll high enough to contact a units flank, but are in their front arc, and no space exists to charge the front with one wheel and a close, then, what? Move the original direction and stop one inch short I suppose?

Bummer about stupidity :-/ thanks for clarifying!

RZ, that wouldn't fall under the "completing a charge" section- i.e. if the attacker cannot wheel to close the door, the defender must? And if somehow neither can, it is a failed charge?

Red_Zeke wrote:Seems like with the random movement it would be possible to contact someone but still not be able to complete a charge. If you roll high enough to contact a units flank, but are in their front arc, and no space exists to charge the front with one wheel and a close, then, what? Move the original direction and stop one inch short I suppose?

If you're in the front arc, then the front is the closest. If the front is completely blocked, as per the normal charge rules, that charge would fail; stopping an inch short would make the most sense.

-Matt

Yeah, here's the situation I'm describing:



The spawn rolls high enough to contact the enemy. So it executes a charge. But he's in the front arc of the unit, with no room to contact.

So what happens? A failed charge? How does that work for a random movement model? In the case of the spawn, would you just pick the highest of the two dice it rolled for random movement?

RZ

THey don't HAVE to charge do they? If they roll high enough to charge, but there is no room to fit in the correct facind then they could just mive as normal instead of charging, right? So in your example above, the spawn would just make a normal move and line its self up for a charge the next turn in the flank of the enemy. That's the whole point of not declaring a charge for random movement, there never is a failed charge. You either can charge in making it into the correct faceing i.e. the one you started in, or you just make a normal move without charging. very simple really.

Yea, it would just move to within one inch of the enemy unit. Depending on the angle, it might have to stop one inch away from the friendly unit.

They have to charge, as the rules for compulsory move state so. If you cannot contact the arc you have to charge into then the charge is failed, and you pick the highest of the two dice AND stay 1" away.