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What is it about Marine Fleets that makes them underpowered???

Mainly is the complete lack of lances (bombards are close, but are reduced by blast templates) as well as the low # of shields on marine ships.

Of course, its been years since I played my Marines (or BFG in general) so there may be more to it than that, but I think thats the short answer.

Well, they aren't strictly underpowered...they take a bit of finesse, but they are quite strong against certain enemies and in certain scenarios (they are nearly impossible to beat in a planetary assault, oddly enough ).

The things that make them tricky to play is that strike cruisers aren't as durable as they might seem, their escorts are a bit expensive, and they lack a bomber capability.

Balanced against that, however, is the fact that they have the battle barge (probably one of the best BBs in the game), excellent leadership, some nice bonuses for boarding/hit & run attacks, resilient fighters that also double as assault boats, and better than average speed & armor.

We might be able to give you a little more help if you can give us your fleet list and/or the specific problems you have been having.

Boarding torpedoes can be fun against a certain type of Eldar fleet. If played correctly.

Draft2010

http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q

will go to GW in december. Official development.

Check Marines.

I like the extra point of turret for strike cruisers. Won't have to spend as much time massing turrets with Gladii and thawks on CAP now... not that I won't anyway...

Ok. Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but Baron made me remember it. Are Fighters able to CAP enemy ships?

No...

horizon wrote:No...

Alright thanks!!

BaronIveagh wrote:I like the extra point of turret for strike cruisers. Won't have to spend as much time massing turrets with Gladii and thawks on CAP now... not that I won't anyway...

Strike Cruisers have always had 2 turrets (well, not always, but ever since Armada, anyway).

I think that marines are best in a Armageddon fleet where they can be mixed with normal IN ships. It adds a bit of variety to an otherwise limited fleet.

Again, haven't played in a long while so YMMV

Ruckdog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I like the extra point of turret for strike cruisers. Won't have to spend as much time massing turrets with Gladii and thawks on CAP now... not that I won't anyway...

Strike Cruisers have always had 2 turrets (well, not always, but ever since Armada, anyway).

Can't tell how old some of my material is....

BaronIveagh wrote:

Can't tell how old some of my material is....

Hee hee, no problem. Rules for the strike cruiser were originally published via BFG Magazine, and found their way onto the web through the BFG Ships Compendium PDF. In those rules, the SC did only have one turret (basically, it was the Dauntless with 6+ armor). However, once Armada came out in 2004, it bumped up the turret rating to 2. Hence the line in each subsequent FAQ that reads something to the effect "The only correct profiles for Space Marine ships come from Armada."

Ruckdog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Can't tell how old some of my material is....

Hee hee, no problem. Rules for the strike cruiser were originally published via BFG Magazine, and found their way onto the web through the BFG Ships Compendium PDF. In those rules, the SC did only have one turret (basically, it was the Dauntless with 6+ armor). However, once Armada came out in 2004, it bumped up the turret rating to 2. Hence the line in each subsequent FAQ that reads something to the effect "The only correct profiles for Space Marine ships come from Armada."

LOL Yeah, I know, I had the BFG mag stats. NO one around here played SM, so I never looked itno if it had changed.


signs of BFGM:

Nice! I'm trying to remember...is that the Long Serpent or one of the Invincible fast BBs?

Long Serpent. I have an Invincible, but it's currently stripped of paint.

I'm hoping Fast Imperial is in when they put out the FAQ for IN. I doubt though that they made it, the FAQ writers said they want to avoid anything with special rules, and the LS and Inv both had one that they exploded spectacularly. (though the Invincible could come to new heading)

The IN ship I'd like to see overhauled the most is the IN grand cruisers.

Raise Exorcist launch bays to 3 squadrons and raise her cost to 260 and she'll be a viable alternative to the Mars. She's tougher then the Mars overall (2 more hp, 1 more shield and turret), but is easier to hit and lacks it's nova cannon and +6 prow armor.

Increase Avenger's speed or increase it's range. Or allow it to buy increased range at the cost of reduced power. The bloody thing has more raw firepower then a Retribution, but no one in their right mind is ever going to get that close. I wouldn't mind paying 275 for it if it lived up to it's potential more.

Vengeance is slightly under-priced, but it's larger base offsets this.

Heh, the Invincible is used in the Cold Passage scenario (along a Victory and a Dauntless vs a Desolator & Repulsive). A scenario I can heavily recommend to anyone.

EEeii

The Excorcist is potent as it is and needs no change at all.
The Vengeance is good.
The Avenger is so cool in concept but indeeds needs a big change.

Per FAQ2010 the Grand Cruisers will get an option to take torpedoes.

When do we get to take a look at the IN part? all I've seen so far is SM and RT.

No, the Exorcist isn't very formidable at all. It's incrementally better then the Dictator, which you don't have to have two other cruisers to take, and can be fitted with a NC.

If it's launch bays were increased and cost brought into line with Mars and Styx, she'd be much more worthwhile.

??
Mars has 4 launch bays.
Styx 6 (the oddball).
Excorcist has 4 launch bays.

The Excorcist works perfect alongside an Emperor or Vengeance. All three ships that benefit of going abeam.


What do you mean with IN part? With the drafts?
Draft also has Tau kor'or'vesh and since recently Powers of Chaos pt2 (other factions battleship and some cruisers.

IN also something on its way as far as I know. Orks also.

I personally like the Exorcist as-is, but maybe we should start a new thread to discuss it rather than hi-jack this Marine thread?

Hmm... Dude I read the Space Marine Fleet, nice work. No offence, but the BATTLE BARGE SEDITIO OPPRIMERE for example from my point of view is Overpowered somehow. The Armament seems ok, but 4 Shields and 4 Turrets on a BB seem a bit to much for me. Or I think its Point Value should be boosted a bit.
FORTRESS - MONESTARY also is a bit strong...

But for the Strike Cruisers I think "Replace bombardment cannon. A strike cruiser may replace its prow firepower-3, Left/Front/Right bombardment
cannon for a strength-1, range: 30cm lance firing Left/Front/Right for +20 points"
it is no good Deal. 3 Bombard (from my Point of View) are better then 1 Lance. Not even talking about the extra 20 Points.

Hmm... Dude I read the Space Marine Fleet, nice work. No offence, but the BATTLE BARGE SEDITIO OPPRIMERE for example from my point of view is Overpowered somehow. The Armament seems ok, but 4 Shields and 4 Turrets on a BB seem a bit to much for me. Or I think its Point Value should be boosted a bit.
FORTRESS - MONESTARY also is a bit strong...

The S.O. is fine: shorter ranged then a standard Barge and finally enough shields/turrets to do a proper planetary assaults. Also it is prized very heavy. Majority of us is happy with it.

The Monastry: to be honest: I don't care about such things being too strong. They should be too strong.

But for the Strike Cruisers I think "Replace bombardment cannon. A strike cruiser may replace its prow firepower-3, Left/Front/Right bombardment
cannon for a strength-1, range: 30cm lance firing Left/Front/Right for +20 points"
it is no good Deal. 3 Bombard (from my Point of View) are better then 1 Lance. Not even talking about the extra 20 Points.

If it was for us fans they wouldn't get the lance at all. But that was a wish from higher up. So we swayed them to make it as expensive as possible <evil grin>

horizon wrote:
The Monastry: to be honest: I don't care about such things being too strong. They should be too strong.

Shouldn't a game be about balance first, second, and third before anything else? If its really good, just bump the points or make it "scenario only" or some such....

pffft, as if anyone would take a 1000pts thing. That is already restricted to odd big games. When someone takes it in a 1750pts fleet (my max so far in +10 years) so be it.

My game approach to BFG is more like a 50/50 fluff balance thing.

I don't think it is overpowered for 1000pts. It is only 1 target.

Vanquisher wrote:Hmm... Dude I read the Space Marine Fleet, nice work. No offence, but the BATTLE BARGE SEDITIO OPPRIMERE for example from my point of view is Overpowered somehow.

Clearly, sir, you are un-acquainted with the version that mounted 6 lances per side with a range of 60cm!

As I recall, it came to be known as The Ship That Shall Not Be Named on Port Maw...

Ruckdog wrote:

Vanquisher wrote:Hmm... Dude I read the Space Marine Fleet, nice work. No offence, but the BATTLE BARGE SEDITIO OPPRIMERE for example from my point of view is Overpowered somehow.

Clearly, sir, you are un-acquainted with the version that mounted 6 lances per side with a range of 60cm!

As I recall, it came to be known as The Ship That Shall Not Be Named on Port Maw...

LOL Nothing beats ver 1.0 NC. Nothing.

lol, I know.

My opponent: "My first Nova Cannon aims 143cm".

Measuring...

Spot on.

Every. Single. Shot.

Ruckdog wrote:

Vanquisher wrote:Hmm... Dude I read the Space Marine Fleet, nice work. No offence, but the BATTLE BARGE SEDITIO OPPRIMERE for example from my point of view is Overpowered somehow.

Clearly, sir, you are un-acquainted with the version that mounted 6 lances per side with a range of 60cm!

As I recall, it came to be known as The Ship That Shall Not Be Named on Port Maw...

Well I definatly am. I did not say that one is not OP, but at least even the Lance BB-Gunship got only 3 shields and 3 Turrets.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

horizon wrote:pffft, as if anyone would take a 1000pts thing. That is already restricted to odd big games. When someone takes it in a 1750pts fleet (my max so far in +10 years) so be it.

My game approach to BFG is more like a 50/50 fluff balance thing.

I don't think it is overpowered for 1000pts. It is only 1 target.

nobody here wants to devalue youre work. But you dont seem to like criticism anyhow... (actualy noone loves Criticism) but if you want to keep it like : "here are the rules, my housemade ones take them or leave it, I dont want to discuss about it and I dont care what you think about it" you should have added that to youre post.

Some even say the current Seditio is overcosted! Some want 4 shields/4 turrets on the regular barge.

Also: I DID NOT make those rules. I AM A FAN who gave (and gives) feedback to the ones who made them.

They are made by the GW installed BFG RULES COMMITEE (High Admirality).

They are not houserules. They will be official at one point.

horizon wrote:Some even say the current Seditio is overcosted! Some want 4 shields/4 turrets on the regular barge.

Also: I DID NOT make those rules. I AM A FAN who gave (and gives) feedback to the ones who made them.

They are made by the GW installed BFG RULES COMMITEE (High Admirality).

They are not houserules. They will be official at one point.

All right. I apeared to me as you where the creator of this. I appologize for this missunderstanding. But I realy hope, In case theese become official once, they over-think a few of the ships again at least once. But somehow I doubt, that GW itself still cares enought about BFG to make or accept any futher "official" stuff or (maybe) even bring another book about it.