How to make Nightbringer useful?

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**General Legion**

I looked over the rules for the Nightbringer today, and compared him to the Swarmlord from the Tyranid codex. Not only is the Swarmlord cheaper then Nightbringer, but he is far better, with the ability to support the army and be devastating to the enemy in close combat. and in a one on one fight, the Swarmlord would instant kill the Nightbringer with his boneswords. so I ask this:

How would you personally fix Nightbringer and keep him in a normal game of 40K?

**LordTyphus**

You would never use him, or you would make the Deceiver totally buff the whole army with Little CC power and make the Nightbriger rape faces

**-Loki-**

This is the problem with comparing a 5th edition codex to a 3rd edition codex. Simply adding Eternal Warrior to Nightbringer would mean the Swarmlord wouldn't instagib him. But Eternal Warrior didn't exist in 3rd edition.

**General Legion**

I didn't know that eternal warrior didn't exist back then. Do you think that if you added Eternal warrior, the Nightbringer would be worth all his points? I'm still iffy, the Swarmlord buffs his allies and has a few psychic powers he can use, while the Nightbringer has one or two cool abilities, but ultimately just focuses on close combat. And with his relatively low WS, he's pretty weak at that. its pretty sad when a space marine captain can go toe to toe with a god and have the same chance of hitting.

**Eura**

I think the simplist answer is the best one. reduce his cost and throw him in a group of pariahs.

**-Loki-**

I never said Eternal Warrior would make him worth his points, but it would stop things like boneswords and force weapons instantly killing him.

It's also the difference between 3rd edition special characters and 5th edition special characters. In 3rd edition, they simply weren't as powerful as they are now, and were more expensive.

**General Legion**

True. How would you fix him?

**Azure**

Give him EW and a 3+ Invul save, I'd pay 400 pts for that, but also make him move like a jet bike without turbo boost. 6 inches a turn for a god is unacceptable and even silly sounding if you read the fluff about them.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

i wouldn't because imo the deceiver is better. just wait for crons to get their codex

**General Legion**

That'd be awesome. With the ability to turboboost, he'd be a fast attacking, powerful melee combatant. but I'm not sure that's worth more then his current points for what it gives you. especially since snipers would still eat him for breakfast. Maybe make it so snipers would on a higher number (i.e. 5+) or something against him ?

and maybe give the same thing to the Deceiver? because he's awesome, but I'm not sure if he's worth all of his points either. though, he's a lot closer then the Nightbringer is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have any good ideas when the new codex is coming out?

**Maelstrom808**

Eternal Warrior and mobility. Those are the only things he really lacks imo.

**DarknessEternal**

General Legion wrote: its pretty sad when a space marine captain can go toe to toe with a god and have the same chance of hitting.

Same chance of hitting, far worse chance to wound, infinitely worse chance to save.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Nightbringer should be considered to have EW since that's what his rules tried to emulate (back then you didnt have so many insta-killing things running around). In current rules he'd probably have a 3+ invul save with rerolls or something.

**asimo77**

EW is a no brainer, it would also be nice if he had some way of ignoring things that arent ID but remove models like JotWW, Gift of Chaos, and a whole slew of DE weaponry. Also the tomb stalker has a rule where anything that wounds on a fixed number only does so on a 6 instead. I think the Nightbringer should be immune to poison and snipers.

To put some of his characteristics in perspective:

WS- The god of death is equal to generic SM captains, worse than Lelith, Archons, Phoenix Lords, Greater Daemons, the Swarmlord, Avatars (which is sad because he went toe-to-toe with Khaine when he wasn't splintered) and so on

His shooting attack is a short range lascannon, the god of fear and death is outclassed by railguns, vindicators, and demolishers

Wounds- The really large tyranids MC's have more wounds than a god...

Saves- Wraiths, the C'tan's own servants have a better save(s) than they do

When you think of all of the things that can actually hurt the C'tan :carnifexes, powerfists, autocannons, lascannons, shredders, nemesis weapons, sniper rifles, splinter weaponry, dark/bright Lances, eviscerators, wraithlords, MC's, plasmaguns, meltaguns, blasters and so on.

There are probably a million of each of those things, but there are only 4 C'tan and they're all vulnerbale to those weapons. Seems a little crazy that a meltagun, which I'm sure the IoM has millions of can reliably wound the guy who invented the fear of mortality.

There's really no way to fix the C'tan it's too crazy having a god on the field, it would be better if they simply renamed it avatar of the C'tan or something similar.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the C'Tan are as powerful as they currently are, while being exceedingly starved and deprived of energy, then maybe I could accept them as is. Think of all those pics of the twig-thin African babies. If the C'tan are currently at that level of starvation and still are as strong as they are in the current dex, I can accept their status as gods.

**MechaEmperor7000**

This is probably why they're rumored to be phased out. The only way to justify a C'tan appearing on the battlefield would be to make every one of it's stats 10, give it a 3+ or 2+ invul save, Eternal Warrior, a Demolisher-equivallent, and immunity from being changed into a spawn or get nommed by a psychic-wolf, then maybe we can come close to a star-god.

**asimo77**

Sorry for the long post, I get on my soap-box when my beloved necrons come around

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've always wondered what it would be like if the C'tan had a rule like this:

"It's a F---king God!!"-The C'tan can't ever be removed from play.

Mostly just so we can troll with necrons again.

**Laughing God**

IMO he shouldnt be in the codex at all. He should be an apocolypse character that could swat titans... as per fluff.

**AlmightyWalrus**

asimo77 wrote:When you think of all of the things that can actually hurt the C'tan :carnifexes, nemesis weapons, wraithlords [...]

There are probably a million of each of those things, but there are only 4 C'tan and they're all vulnerbale to those weapons.

Just pointing out that these things are a lot more rare than you seem to think, especially the Wraithlord, and ESPECIALLY the dangerous, instant-deathing version of NFWs. I see your point though.

**diesel7270**

I was determined for months to not shelve necrons when I thought surely some good tactics would win in the end. And then I gave up on that after about a 30-match losing streak once all of my other players became wise to AP, plasma cannons, and lascannons.

So I shelved them and started on Eldar.

If you want to make your nightbringer worthwhile, you could try this: Give him a straight shot, unadulterated by your models, to the enemy command squad, or better yet, the squad with the most independent characters so you can get more kill points in the assault. If that isn't available, go for terminators or land raiders. Chances are your opponent will fire every lascannon and plasma weapon at this guy to try to stop him before he gets there. At best, lucky invulnerable saves will keep this guy juggernauting through everything. At worst, you will buy your monoliths, pariahs (also not powerful enough), and destroyers more time.

Use your lightning arc for potshots at enemy vehicles or +2 armor save models... but don't rely on it. If you REALLY want to win the best thing I can tell you is to go with multiple monoliths. 3 if possible, and heavy destroyers if you can keep them in cover. It gets expensive, if someone goes heavy vehicles, you're probably going to lose. Even with a nightbringer.

**Brother Heinrich**

Laughing God wrote:IMO he shouldnt be in the codex at all. He should be an apocolypse character that could swat titans... as per fluff.

+1

**MechaEmperor7000**

Skulltaker actually stands a really good chance at killing the nightbringer, and he's barely half the points of the bringer.

**General Legion**

that's saddening. And i agree, he should only be in apocolypse.

**asimo77**

Even in Apocalypse he wouldn't fit. Titans are rare but there are enough of them for them to have legions. There's only 1 Nightbringer, so unless he can swat Imperators like flies, it would still be kinda silly.

I mean the C'tan took on the Old Ones, Eldar, assorted pantheons, and whatever else the Old ones cooked up. Then you have them committing feats like eating stars, wiping out entire races, enslaving entire races in necrodermis, inventing fear, and creating pariahs.

These guys need to be like the Emperor and the Chaos gods: background only.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Nightbringer himself made a mythical deity mortal. However Apoc would be a good place for him. There is only one Calgar but he still shows up to skirmishes, same goes for Abaddon and Logan Grimnar.

**asimo77**

That's true but they aren't described as gods...well except Calgar.

Honestly it might just be that little 3 letter word that annoys me so much. They are classified as beings of the highest order of existence, but hardly live up to that title.

**MechaEmperor7000**

DoW did it pretty well though, making the nightbringer and deciever into "avatars" instead of the phyiscal gods. However no matter how you look at it, the C'Tan are on the same level as the Emperor and Chaos gods. Nightbringer made Khaine mortal, the only other time anyone dominated him like that was when Slaanesh and Khorne shattered him into the various Craftworld Avatars.

**asimo77**

I hope they go the DoW route, even though outdated when a C'tan gets deployed people still go "oh sh-t!", which is entertaining. So I hope there is still some sort of uber unit in the new cron dex. Just rename it avatar of the C'tan.

In fact it's those kinds of reactions that make (or made) necrons fun to play.

When your opponent fires everything he's got and downs 11 warriors, and 9 of them get back up it's priceless. So is having a necron lord get back up 3 times in a game, DS'ing a monolith into someones face, and having scarabs eat Landraiders.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Oh yes, the army from hell that never dies. Fun times.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

yes yes but it's always more fun making the C'tan explode T1 wiping out 1/2 of the opponents necron force. It's not the fact he's underpowered, its that he's terribly overpriced

**Cryage**

I caved and bought a nightbringer today... I know the deceiver is better but I just love the nightbringer model so much...

Anyway, to make him effective is to keep him out of line of sight from weapons that could snipe him (lascannons, rail guns etc) so I would basically make a monolith be his escort across the battlefield. I mean, he can wipe out a group of terminators like they're practically nothing.