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I wanted to verify something....

There is a single use weapon called a Shattershard in the new DE codex. It has no strength or AP value, and is a template. It calls for any non-vehicle model hit by the Shattershard to take a toughness test or be removed from play.

Now....the defender gets to allocate wounds before rolling saves, but this weapon doesn't wound - and specifically calls out the models being hit - making it seem to me that the defender doesn't get to choose which models will take the toughness test - but rather that it must be the ones under the template.

Does anyone see fault with that understanding?

If it uses the term "models hit by template" then I would say each model under the template must take the test. The defender would not be able to set the hit to a different model. The difference being it specifies models and not unit.

Yep that's the way it reads. There is also a missle which does the same.

For template weapons all models under the Template are "hit"
Models in the same unit as those that fall under the Template may be assigned the "wounds", against which they may attempt a save.

The Shattershard neither Wounds nor allows saves so it would have to be the models under the template.(it also ignores EW)

The implosion missile is a Blast Weapon, and does very similar things; excepting that the "to-wound" roll is replaced by a Wounds test; and saves are allowed. Blast Markers again "Hit" the models beneath the marker, but it is only after wounds are determined that you get to allocate those wounds for Save attempts. This would mean that the models beneath the Implosion missiles marker all take wounds tests(assuming Majority Wounds value is used here, otherwise you could do them one at a time), then you allocate the ID Wounds across the unit as normal.

"Any non-vehicle model hit by the shattershard must take a toughness test. If they take this test they are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed"

Nothing in there is going to trigger wound allocation. Each model needs to test and get's removed if it fails.

Correct, it is per model.

It's not intended to work like that. Otherwise it would say so explicitly. Nice try though.

There are many instances of unique rules and such situations that are explicitly explained how they work. There are no eater eggs in 40k.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:There are many instances of unique rules and such situations that are explicitly explained how they work. There are no eater eggs in 40k.

? eater eggs? of course not but there are Easter eggs (just spotted GW agrees with my view on stealth yay)

As for the weapon (assuming rules posted are correct) models under the template must take toughness test or be removed. Normal rules for templates is that you workout how many are hit then roll for wounds; any wounds made may be allocated around the unit. Since we are not allocating wounds and we been told that models hit and failing the test are removed ... well then the modes hit are removed if they fail the test same as JotWW.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:It's not intended to work like that. Otherwise it would say so explicitly. Nice try though.

So I assume JotWW isn't intended to snipe models either? 'Cause Shattershard is JotWW in Template form, using a different characteristic.

The weapon works perfectly fine exactly as it is written. It's not overpowered or unbalanced - on the contrary - it would be terrible if it didn't snipe models.

There alot of war gear/ weapons in the DE armoury that goes agaisnt models hits and they use there Strengh vs toughness.... ( that are template weapons)Its seems like the DE are character killers almost.... EW doesnt stand a chance any more ... since the model is removed from play not dead.... Nice wording GW

I can see why they increased the points of haemis...

Rymafyr wrote:I can see why they increased the points of haemis...

Still only a one-use weapon. . .

puma713 wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:I can see why they increased the points of haemis...

Still only a one-use weapon. . .

you only need to use it once...

Darkwynn wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:I can see why they increased the points of haemis...

Still only a one-use weapon. . .

you only need to use it once...

I find that weapons the are weapons of opportunity aren't as devastating as some might imagine. Just helps me figure out which Raider to shoot first.

Interesting. It still follows the other rules for template weapons so you have to place to cover as many models as possible and that may leave out the model you really want to hit.

Come on guys let stick with the rules please.

No more spam, lads. Thank ye kindly.

As other have said. the weapon itself states models hit by, and the BRB is quite clear what being hit by a template involves. Nothing to allocate here boys

For having trouble hitting the guy one actually want to hit, just make sure to treat it like your good ole hidden PK and keep track

That is pretty much how I see it too. One shot weapons with a big price tag just reek. I would rather take a cheap liquifier.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:That is pretty much how I see it too. One shot weapons with a big price tag just reek. I would rather take a cheap liquifier.

15 points is a big price tag? When the liquefier is 10 points?

Sure, a near-automatic death to a entire unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry or a flamer template that needs 5's to wound and that they can allocate to diversified models. . .

I have to totally disagree with you guys. The rules here are *not* clear because both the template weapon and blast weapon rules are written that hits = wounds on the unit. Once you take the hits = wounds concept out of the rules for these weapons, the rules no longer make coherent sense. Especially considering the Implosion missile allows cover and invulnerable saves. What exactly are we taking saves against in this case?

This is a MUCH different case than with JoWW because Jaws does not use an existing set of rules that normally specifies that hits = wounds that can be allocated to any model.

In this case, they've used the standard mechanics but replaced one part of it with a new mechanic but obviously not taken into account the repercussions, as evidenced by the Implosion Missile's saving throws. So I don't think you can state that the RAW clearly indicate that the models covered by the blast are the ones who must take the test (necessarily).

Yakface, look at pages 29 and 30, they show visually how models are hit by templates and even have the quote "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."?
Is the the sort of thing your looking for?

The problem with mixing hits and wounds is that there's no way of determining the proper way of resolving the combination. Consider the following:

Two Haemonculae fire on a unit. One fires the Shattershard, the other fires a Liquifier gun. The target unit consists of 10 models (8 of one type, two of another), and six models are under each of the templates. A miracle happens and all of the Liquifier hits wound at AP1.

Now you have to deal with six "hits" and six "wounds", and the two weapon effects are supposed to be applied simultaneously. Because the immediate claim is going to be to assign every possible wound to models "hit" by Shattershard and remove those "hit" models first.

Alternative 1: It's a one shot, unique weapon that is completely unusable when combined with other shooting, but hits what it covers.
Alternative 2: ???

IMO the effect is resolved long before wounds are happening - as it doesn't go through that process, you're hit, you take test.

ChrisCP wrote:IMO the effect is resolved long before wounds are happening - as it doesn't go through that process, you're hit, you take test.

... but they're not removed till after saves are taken. With other weapons it should play out like this

1) Work out which models are hit (all weapons)
(A or B first makes no difference they're happening at the same time)
2)a) Test the models that need to be toughness tested
2)b) Roll for wounds
3) Allocate wounds (big question would be do models that have failed their toughness test count as having a taken wound ... my guess would be yes, so they only take a second wound when every one else has at least one)
4) roll for saves (note even if the model doesn't have a save it shouldn't be removed till this point)

Well that’s how I would play it any way.

"The Shattershard neither Wounds nor allows saves so it would have to be the models under the template.(it also ignores EW) "

What is EW?

Eternal Warrior.

Ohhh, okay, freaking noob. I shoulda knew that...

solkan wrote:Now you have to deal with six "hits" and six "wounds", and the two weapon effects are supposed to be applied simultaneously. Because the immediate claim is going to be to assign every possible wound to models "hit" by Shattershard and remove those "hit" models first.

Hits with templates do not equal wounds. The language for templates is very Clear you determine the number of models hit with the template at the same time you fire other weapons(including other templates, And markers have the Same wording for determining the number of hits).

This means that the Shatttershard is going to be particularly devastating with high ROF shooting weapons(Like Shardcarbines) Take for example 8 trueborn armed with Shardcarbines, Duke Sliscus(The trueborn have the 3+ poison) and a Haemonculus with Shatter Shard all in a raider with Splinter racks; 21.333 Splinter hits, 7 Shattershard hits, 1 blast pistol hit. It does not Matter if you then Roll to wound with the Blast pistol and Splinter hits before or after you make the Shattershard tests, because the firing is all done on the squad as a whole(I am guessing from the language of Shatter shard that all models hit make a test on their own T). Each model that fails the Toughness test seems to be immediately removed from play, so when you start allocating the 14.222 Splinter wounds, and the very likely Blast pistol wound you cannot allocate to the removed models(but can allocate those hits to models that survived the shattershard hit).

The Implosion missiles, as I said, get much trickier as you would still make the characteristics test at the wounds step, but then you may be able to allocate those "implosions" at the Saves step(even though it doesn't wound you still have the Saves available, and no language to state that it could snipe, and you allocate wounding hits at the save step). Then again you generally allocate only wounds(and implosion missiles do not cause wounds per se, but rather ID without requiring a wound to be taken), at the very least a small unit of 2-3 models could be making saves vs the implosion effect, and both Void lances(in this case if you had a unit of 3 all fall under the marker and get hit with both Lances, and 1 model passed it's wounds test; that 1 model could keep only it's Implosion hit, while the other 2 take both implosions and Lance wounds and die).

I expect we will see an FAQ on both eventually; and my reading of the Shattershard with Carbines may be incorrect; the Shattershard does not cause casualties so does not seem to need to wait for the removal of it's "kills" until the remove casualties step, but when the FAQ comes out GW might decide that yes, we wait until the remove casualties step and therefore you can wrap wounds onto those hit. implosion Missiles flat require an FAQ.