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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/20 00:33:09
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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http://www.scienceprogress.org/2010/11/death-panels-in-arizona/
thee only political effort to implement death panels since Obama got his health reform bill passed has been in the state of Arizona. There the Republican-controlled legislature with the approval of GOP Governor Jan “there are headless bodies turning up all over our desert” Brewer has told 98 people waiting for transplants that they must die.
Those 98, who are either poor or uninsurable by private insurance due to pre-existing conditions, need bone marrow, lung, heart, and other forms of transplants. They were told by the state’s Medicaid program—Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System, or AHCCCS—that they qualified for coverage. But, this October 1, AHCCCS said it could not in fact pay for their transplants. Facing a billion-dollar-plus budget deficit, the Arizona legislature cut out all state funding for transplantation retroactively!
This means that people who were told they had a chance at life had the rug pulled out from under them without any warning. The Republican legislature not only acted as a death panel; it chose to balance the budget on the backs of the poorest and most desperate of Arizonians by welshing on a promise.
Just to be clear, the legislature and governor did not say there would be no more transplant funding going forward. They said they are telling those to whom coverage has already been promised to drop dead.
Those waiting for transplants who had put their faith in the promise of coverage did not get a chance to try and raise money to pay for a transplant. They could not try to move somewhere else to seek coverage. They had no chance to beg the legislature and the governor not to kill them. They simply woke up on October 1 and found that the most mean-spirited death panel imaginable had taken the most unjust course of action possible and pulled the funding rug out from under them.
A member of the Arizona House has suggested there might be a hearing on all this in January. But those needing transplants do not have the luxury of time. The waiting lists for hearts and lungs are short because those waiting die if they are not lucky enough to obtain an organ.
None of this death panel activity has evoked a word of protest from would be presidential candidates such as Sarah Palin, who first sounded the death panel false alarm about Obamacare; Newt Gingrich; or Mitt Romney. Nor has a single word of condemnation passed the lips of the incoming House GOP leadership.
Advocates of the long overdue effort to reform the ailing American health care system need to be ready to tell the American people that when it comes to their health, Republicans are more than willing to renege on their promises and send the weak and the frail to their graves. If the national GOP is serious about death panels there are 98 people in Arizona who would love to hear from them.
^%@#^& scum. they have the money for wasteful illegal round ups and wealthy tax cuts. but not for the sick, who were promised a operation. Universal health care=death panels, and a panel that sends 98 people to the grave is health care that works.
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And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/20 00:40:25
Subject: Re:Death panals are real!
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Morphing Obliterator
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Ah Republican healthcare at its best. Obviously they had thought that all the lies they had told while the bill was being implemented were so good, they should make them a reality.
Incidentally, universal healthcare =/ death panels, it just seems that arizona is run by some of your more don't bypass the swear filter, thanks ! up politicians.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/23 10:48:16
taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 22:45:16
Subject: Re:Death panals are real!
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Hauptmann
Diligently behind a rifle...
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It's a waiting list, not a guarantee. Individual States have the right to do this, like it or not.
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Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away
1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action
"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."
"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"
Res Ipsa Loquitor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 23:00:12
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Still it's a death panel. People chose who lives or dies.
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And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 23:03:08
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Would you prefer if they selected randomly?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 23:10:09
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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sexiest_hero wrote:Still it's a death panel. People chose who lives or dies.
Everyone has to die at some point.
More than half of the people on the transplant waiting lists will never get one as there simply aren't enough. They could throw all the money in the world at it, but you cannot buy or create organs.
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Codex: Grey Knights touched me in the bad place... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 23:13:10
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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You could start harvesting poor people so as to keep a permanent bank of organs for the elite.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/22 23:14:48
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They should take those 98, give them guns and have a good old fashioned "shootout at the ok corral".. The 10 still standing get transplants.
Wasteful illegal roundups? Yeah because millions of illegals sneaking into arizona is really beneficial to the state and the US as a whole.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:25:45
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Now that...
Fateweaver wrote:They should take those 98, give them guns and have a good old fashioned "shootout at the ok corral".. The 10 still standing get transplants.
...is class.
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:27:38
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hey, I put the "ass" in "class".
To the op......you spelled "panels" wrong.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:29:47
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Fateweaver wrote:
To the op......you spelled "panels" wrong. 
Perhaps he meant the Death Canals of Panama? (Death Panals for short  )
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:34:42
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fighter Pilot
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The Dreadnote wrote:You could start harvesting poor people so as to keep a permanent bank of organs for the elite.
This reminds me of that Movie...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:35:59
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Maybe "Death Pandas". Now that'd be sweet if those were real.
I guess if AZ can't afford to keep trying to get people transplants what other choice do they have? Guess maybe increase the amount of money to medical care by getting rid of illegals sucking the system? Nah, can't work. Illegals make the US a better place (or some such kool-aid instilled nonsense).
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 01:43:02
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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I would only agree with this course of action if there simply wasn't anything else to be done. It disturbs me that money is being directed away from Medicare over to cracking down on illegal immigrants.
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 02:01:53
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Perhaps because you don't live in the US and so don't see the problem.
Like how I find it odd that it takes an act of God in Australia to own a rifle or a handgun. It disturbs me your government can tell you that you can or cannot have a gun.
Capiche?
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 02:17:20
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fighter Pilot
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Can someone explain what a Death Panal is?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 02:27:53
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Hauptmann
Diligently behind a rifle...
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Miraclefish wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Still it's a death panel. People chose who lives or dies.
Everyone has to die at some point.
More than half of the people on the transplant waiting lists will never get one as there simply aren't enough. They could throw all the money in the world at it, but you cannot buy or create organs.
Thank you! Being on a transplant list is a crapshoot to begin with.
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Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away
1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action
"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."
"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"
Res Ipsa Loquitor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 02:29:23
Subject: Death panals are real!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Miraclefish wrote:Everyone has to die at some point.
And when people would rather have a bigger TV or third car instead of a sensible level of taxation, that death will come sooner. But hey, TV picture is pretty good.
More than half of the people on the transplant waiting lists will never get one as there simply aren't enough. They could throw all the money in the world at it, but you cannot buy or create organs.
These people aren't going to die because there aren't enough organs. They're going to die to save some money. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fateweaver wrote:Maybe "Death Pandas". Now that'd be sweet if those were real.
I guess if AZ can't afford to keep trying to get people transplants what other choice do they have? Guess maybe increase the amount of money to medical care by getting rid of illegals sucking the system? Nah, can't work. Illegals make the US a better place (or some such kool-aid instilled nonsense).
The only two elements in the Arizona budget are healthcare and border control? Automatically Appended Next Post: Fateweaver wrote:Perhaps because you don't live in the US and so don't see the problem.
Like how I find it odd that it takes an act of God in Australia to own a rifle or a handgun. It disturbs me your government can tell you that you can or cannot have a gun.
Capiche?
So you think living in the US produces a frame of mind in which telling people their life saving healthcare, previously promised, has been now been cut... makes sense?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/23 02:31:59
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 03:31:45
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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How is saying "we have no money to pay for the transplant" the same as "you don't have enough value for the transplant"?
The "Death Panel" is people sitting around determining if your life is worth saving.
This is the State of Arizona acknowledging it is broke, and cannot afford the procedures. I bet if the Federal Government would get a bit more serious about illegal immigration, Arizona could have afforded this. They spent 2.7 billion dollars in 2009 on Illegals. So those 98 people should be looking at them for the money.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:18:25
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Fateweaver wrote:Perhaps because you don't live in the US and so don't see the problem.
Like how I find it odd that it takes an act of God in Australia to own a rifle or a handgun. It disturbs me your government can tell you that you can or cannot have a gun.
Capiche?
Yeah! ...wait, what?
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:19:29
Subject: Death panals are real!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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djones520 wrote:How is saying "we have no money to pay for the transplant" the same as "you don't have enough value for the transplant"?
The "Death Panel" is people sitting around determining if your life is worth saving.
Actually, the 'death panel' was an option that provided funding for people to go and see a doctor to talk to them about how they wanted to be treated at the end of their lives, so that they can then make an informed choice for themselves. Which then entered the realm of the crazies where people started claiming there would be some kind of government panel that decided if a person was worthy of life or not.
And how exactly does one of the richest countries in the world not have the money for lifesaving medical procedures. What crap are you spending all that money on?
This is the State of Arizona acknowledging it is broke, and cannot afford the procedures. I bet if the Federal Government would get a bit more serious about illegal immigration, Arizona could have afforded this. They spent 2.7 billion dollars in 2009 on Illegals. So those 98 people should be looking at them for the money.
Are the parks getting mowed? Are all the streetlights getting turned on? Why do you people continue on thinking that the only two line items in the budget that can be cut are border control and healthcare?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:19:39
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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djones520 wrote:This is the State of Arizona acknowledging it is broke, and cannot afford the procedures. I bet if the Federal Government would get a bit more serious about illegal immigration, Arizona could have afforded this. They spent 2.7 billion dollars in 2009 on Illegals. So those 98 people should be looking at them for the money.
Are you saying that you want them to spend more money on illegal immigration or less?
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:26:56
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Emperors Faithful wrote:djones520 wrote:This is the State of Arizona acknowledging it is broke, and cannot afford the procedures. I bet if the Federal Government would get a bit more serious about illegal immigration, Arizona could have afforded this. They spent 2.7 billion dollars in 2009 on Illegals. So those 98 people should be looking at them for the money.
Are you saying that you want them to spend more money on illegal immigration or less?
I'm saying they should have to spend less. The Federal Government is pussy footing the issue, and it's costing the states major money. Because the Fed won't secure the border, or attacks states when they try to handle it themselves, states like Arizona end up having to dish out billions every year in costs that the Illegals bring into the system.
@ Sebster: It's not border control. It's emergency room costs, that the Illegals treat as a primary care clinic, or education costs from having to put all their kids in school, or penal system costs from laws that they end up breaking.
All of those draw from the states coffers, not the actual cost of securing the border its self.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/23 04:29:23
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:29:16
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Arizona attacks other states?
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:36:13
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@E.F
He meant the Fed. government...reread it and you'll see who he/she was referring to.
Djones has it right. AZ was forced to handle illegals the way it did because Obamanation would rather hand out hugs to illegals rather than eviction notices.
The beauty of our constitution. When the Feds won't do something the states have the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to do it themselves.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:38:10
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Emperors Faithful wrote:Arizona attacks other states?
I totally have no problem with you guys discussing our issues, but try to learn them first.
Arizona passed a major law this last year trying to curtail some of the Illegal issues. The Federal Government filed major lawsuits against them for doing that.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:38:59
Subject: Death panals are real!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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djones520 wrote:@ Sebster: It's not border control. It's emergency room costs, that the Illegals treat as a primary care clinic, or education costs from having to put all their kids in school, or penal system costs from laws that they end up breaking.
All of those draw from the states coffers, not the actual cost of securing the border its self.
You're not hearing me. There is more to the Arizona budget than healthcare and the costs of illegal aliens (either their drain on the system, or the cost of keeping them out). There would still be expenditure on parks and gardens, yeah? All those kinds of piddly things, that are nice to have, but really need to be cut before you start telling people their lifesaving surgery didn't make the final budget.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:40:03
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Nice edit there, mate.
EDIT: Changing a more general "they" to "Federal Government" was helpful.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/23 04:40:47
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 04:53:58
Subject: Death panals are real!
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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sebster wrote:djones520 wrote:@ Sebster: It's not border control. It's emergency room costs, that the Illegals treat as a primary care clinic, or education costs from having to put all their kids in school, or penal system costs from laws that they end up breaking.
All of those draw from the states coffers, not the actual cost of securing the border its self.
You're not hearing me. There is more to the Arizona budget than healthcare and the costs of illegal aliens (either their drain on the system, or the cost of keeping them out). There would still be expenditure on parks and gardens, yeah? All those kinds of piddly things, that are nice to have, but really need to be cut before you start telling people their lifesaving surgery didn't make the final budget.
Your missing the point that the State of Arizone is spending nearly 3 billion on things it wouldn't have to if the Federal Government would get it's act straight.
Your also missing the point that there is more then a billion dollar deficit in their budget already. Cuts are being made across the board. The State is already spending 1.1 billion less then it did last year. They could be spending 3 times less if the Illegal issue was under control.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/23 05:24:38
Subject: Death panals are real!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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djones520 wrote:Your missing the point that the State of Arizone is spending nearly 3 billion on things it wouldn't have to if the Federal Government would get it's act straight.
No, I understand that. I really do. Stop repeating your opening position and thinking it's new information.
The illegal issue exists. Pointing it out will not stop it existing, or somehow make that money come back to Arizona. It's committed, fine. But there is so much else going on in the budget, are you going to tell me each and every one of those line items is more important than giving these people a chance at living?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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