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Alright, having agonized (well not literally, but close enough) over this for some time, I figure I could use some input.
Here's my slightly odd 1750 SM list:


HQ
Librarian
100 pts

Troops
Tac Squad, ML, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Razorback
220 pts

Tac Squad, Meltagun, ML, Combi-melta, Rhino
220 pts

Tac Squad, Meltagun, ML, Combi-melta, Rhino
220 pts

Scouts with CCW/BP, PF, Combi-melta
110 pts

Elites
Ironclad Dreadnought, 2 HK, Ironclad Assault Launchers, Hurricane bolter, Seismic hammer, Multimelta
170 pts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad, 3x PP, Thunderhammer
265 pts

LSS
50 pts

Heavy Support
Predator, LC sponsons
120 pts

Predator, LC sponsons
120 pts

My reasoning behind the Ironclad Dread, who against rhyme and reason lacks a drop pod, is partly that I wanted something nasty CC-wise to follow my Tac squads up the field (he also has the 2 HK which surprisingly often pop a transport on turn 1) but mostly he's in there because I love the model..
Worth noting is also that the LSS doesn't have a HF. Main reason for this is I very rarely run into footslogging armies (so even when I get first turn it doesn't have any infantry to flame), and as soon as it's my opponent's turn, it naturally goes down in flames(sic) owing to it's paper armour.

Now, the astute observer will note that this only comes to 1595 pts. This is also a problem, as I can't really see what more I need. 155 is enough for a third Pred, a Dread of some configuration, or a Chaplain with JP/PP.
The Ironclad Dread can also concievably part with his assault launchers which gives us 170 pts to play with, so then a Captain with JP/Relicblade/Digitals can be squeezed in to really give the Assault Squad some bite.

So! What I could use some help with is either deciding what to spend those last points on, or if the list is just garbage all around, some help with redesigning it. If someone feels like doing a redesign, please do keep in mind I enjoy flexible lists.
Being a slow painter, I've only got the Lib, Scouts, LSS, 2 Tac Squads(with Razor and Rhino respectively) and the Ironclad Dread done, and if you think the Dread just isn't worth it I can leave him on the shelf (though since he looks so freakin' awesome it'll be heartwrenching).

Thanks in advance to anyone that takes the time to give some feedback

hey aldain, I will give you feedback.

I'm no list-master but here goes:

Do you really need four troop choices? I suppose the scouts are a sort of throw-away, but if you get their squad up to 10, you can combatsquad half and camp objectives with them. This would allow you to (conceivably?) drop one tac squad. After that, youve got enough to max out with some more speeders and perhaps another pred/vind.

Also, the plasma pistols on your assault squad seems an unorthodox pick. I can imagine it feels good using them, but for 45pts?

advice:
go buy a droppod
take one ped with TL LC and HB sponsons (tis cheaper)
get a better HQ choice

NoToTheMan wrote:advice:
go buy a droppod
take one ped with TL LC and HB sponsons (tis cheaper)
get a better HQ choice

What exactly is a better HQ choice for a (mostly shooty) SM army then? The lib is very cheap, has great powers (I usually go with Null Zone + The Avenger) and provides defense against other psychics with his hood.
About the drop pod, I've tried dropping the dread in when doing 1k games. It usually ends with him popping something armored for half his points, then getting melta'd into oblivion the next turn. I was under the impression that if you want to use pods you should either go all out or none, if I drop half my army in won't that half just get eaten by my opponent's entire army?

Almarine wrote:hey aldain, I will give you feedback.

I'm no list-master but here goes:

Do you really need four troop choices? I suppose the scouts are a sort of throw-away, but if you get their squad up to 10, you can combatsquad half and camp objectives with them. This would allow you to (conceivably?) drop one tac squad. After that, youve got enough to max out with some more speeders and perhaps another pred/vind.

Also, the plasma pistols on your assault squad seems an unorthodox pick. I can imagine it feels good using them, but for 45pts?

Troop choices is a valid point. I guess I'm just afraid I won't have enough troops to take objectives if I go down to 2 tac squads, especially since with this setup the tac squads will have to do a lot of the work (and hence may end up in bad shape by the time they need to take and hold something).
Plasma pistols is a bit odd, yea. I haven't run the Assault Squad yet at all, just looked at them and figured "Alright, what can I do to give them better odds against MEQ? Oooh, plasma!". Not sure if they won't just end up killing themselves due to Get's Hot!, so I'm sort of on the fence there.

1750 points idea for you:

HQ

Vulkan He'stan
190

Librarian
Null Zone & The Avenger
100

ELITES

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
DT: Drop Pod
150

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
DT: Drop Pod
150

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
DT: Drop Pod
150

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Melta Bombs
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
220

Scout Squad (8 man)
Hellfire Heavy Bolter
Sniper Rifles x 8
Camo Cloaks x 8

138

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Tornado
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
70

Land Speeder Tornado
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
70

Land Speeder Tornado
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
70

1747

3 Dreadnoughts drop podding (2 then 1) with twin-linked melta and flamers gives you good close range anti-tank and anti-infantry while landspeeders go infantry/tank hunting. Librarian and Vulkan go in rhino together or separately with melta infantry.

3 missile launchers can take out infantry at range or transports, letting meltas concentrate on higher AV tanks.

Re your problems with Drop Podding the Dreadnought... what about a Lucius Pattern? It's FW, but you can just use the standard GW Pod with the FW Rules. It lets you assault the same turn as you drop.

Well you need to decide what your army is going to do first off.

1st

Obviously you've picked a ranged army, so why the assault squad? You gave them PP and a TH, but no melta bombs, sooo... what are they going to kill? and do you intend to combat squad them at all?

2nd

Since your running a shooty army, why not have a Chapter Master to get that Orbital bombardment? The librarian is good and all, but really where's he going to go? With fully loaded rhinos, unless you drop one marine out somewhere, he's going to be footslogging and will be easy to pick off.

Popsicle wrote:Re your problems with Drop Podding the Dreadnought... what about a Lucius Pattern? It's FW, but you can just use the standard GW Pod with the FW Rules. It lets you assault the same turn as you drop.

No idea what you're talking about here, one of the rule supplements from FW? That'd be nifty but I think I'd have difficulty convincing people that my Pods are special..

ZeroWolf wrote:Well you need to decide what your army is going to do first off.

1st

Obviously you've picked a ranged army, so why the assault squad? You gave them PP and a TH, but no melta bombs, sooo... what are they going to kill? and do you intend to combat squad them at all?

2nd

Since your running a shooty army, why not have a Chapter Master to get that Orbital bombardment? The librarian is good and all, but really where's he going to go? With fully loaded rhinos, unless you drop one marine out somewhere, he's going to be footslogging and will be easy to pick off.

As I said, I want a flexible army. I tend to lean towards shooty but that doesn't mean I want to be completely without meele capability.

As for the assault squad, they're there to kill pretty much anything except hardcore meele units like Assault Termies and AV 14 all-around such as Land Raiders (though I think against a weakened hardcore meele unit they stand a good chance with plasma shots beforehand).
Not sure what you mean by melta bombs (as in plural), since only the Sergeant can take them. Figured since he already has that nifty TH he doesn't need them? Assault squads are pretty nice when you think about it. A bucketload of attacks on the charge to kill regular infantry, TH to deal with walkers, plasma pistols work nice against both MEQ and side/reararmour of transports/speeder-type things. I don't intend to combatsquad them since that will just diminish their efficiency, at least the way I see it.

About the librarian, you'll notice that the Flamer Tac squad is running a Razorback Flamer Tac squad will combatsquad with the ML in the backfield and the librarian riding shotgun with the flamer+sergeant with combi-flamer in the razorback, so with Avenger that's 3 templates in one round of shooting. Works quite well once you pop a transport, it's rare that anything survives.

Maybe I'm sounding a bit negative here but I'm not, I do enjoy the discussion on possible weaknesses of this list

Aldain wrote:

NoToTheMan wrote:advice:
go buy a droppod
take one ped with TL LC and HB sponsons (tis cheaper)
get a better HQ choice

What exactly is a better HQ choice for a (mostly shooty) SM army then? The lib is very cheap, has great powers (I usually go with Null Zone + The Avenger) and provides defense against other psychics with his hood.

if you read your codex (pg. 104) it will break up the HQs in to two categories: Leader and Support

Leader HQ choices are powerful fighters, able to tear through enemies at range or in close combat. Captains and Chapter Masters are the leaders of the Space Marine army, with formidable battle skills and a broad range of wargear options to further refine their deadliness. Each also has the option for a retinue unit - a Command Squad or Honour Guard respectively - to further increase the raw combat might of your army. On the other hand, Librarians, Chaplains and Masters of the Forge are all support HQ choices. These are best employed to complement or augment the abilities of another unit. A Chaplain, for example, boosts a unit's close combat prowess and makes it less likely to retreat, while a Librarian can harness his mind to project blasts of eldritch lightning, enhance his combat prowess or weaken that of his foe.

depending on what you want a MotF would be nice
equip him with a conversion beamer and servitors to make him a pretty powerful long-range squad
and having a ruin bolstered is always fun

chapter masters will give you the orbital bombardment which is meh
sometimes it misses
you have a 33.33% chance of hitting right where you place

for 25 less points you can get a captain
same
exact
profile
the only differences is that OB and the options it gives you for squads
with the chapter master it gives you the all mighty honour guard
a DS unit if there ever was one
captain gives you a command squad
a very rounded unit
it can do whatever you want
if you like bikes put them on bikes and take a bike captain (then 5+ man bike squads become troops)
you seem to like plasma pistols, 4 models can take PPs (the apothecary cannot take any form of optional wargear, the wording is such that you just can't do it(but you can give the company champion stuff))

really the choice is up to you
a commander box will run you 20 american dollars
it comes with a ton of awesome goodies (combi-plasma, combi-melta, storm bolter, bolt pistol, PLASMA PISTOL, PF, power sword, chain sword, and a set of lightning claws *gasps for breath*)
you can count this guy as either a captain or chapter master (what ever you feel like)
this pack has some sought-after bits that people WILL pay/trade you for

start there
see where it takes you

</long-windedness>

Everything is mech so I don't think your asm will last very long. I would consider dropping them for assault terms. Would need to find 25 pts which could be done by changing your razor squad into a 5 man squad with a lasplas razor.

The ironclad really shouldn't have hurricane bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A motf would provide absolutely nothing to this list. Stay with the Libby he is without doubt the best character in the sm codex( with the exalting of som sc)

tedurur wrote:Stay with the Libby he is without doubt the best character in the sm codex( with the exalting of som sc)

i doubt that he is
sure properly upgraded he's nice
but starting with no invul?
no thanks
much rather take my captain

Popsicle wrote:Re your problems with Drop Podding the Dreadnought... what about a Lucius Pattern? It's FW, but you can just use the standard GW Pod with the FW Rules. It lets you assault the same turn as you drop.

It's also onee of the most broken pieces of stuff in the fw books so gl getting someone to play against it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoToTheMan wrote:

tedurur wrote:Stay with the Libby he is without doubt the best character in the sm codex( with the exalting of som sc)

i doubt that he is
sure properly upgraded he's nice
but starting with no invul?
no thanks
much rather take my captain

I see your inv save and raise you a hood and nullzone

tedurur wrote:Everything is mech so I don't think your asm will last very long. I would consider dropping them for assault terms. Would need to find 25 pts which could be done by changing your razor squad into a 5 man squad with a lasplas razor.

The ironclad really shouldn't have hurricane bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A motf would provide absolutely nothing to this list. Stay with the Libby he is without doubt the best character in the sm codex( with the exalting of som sc)

It's really that bad for marines when it comes to CC troops, assault termies or nothing? Makes me a little sad There's no chance the Assault Marines can survive by moving from cover to cover until it's assault time?

The Ironclad's arms aren't glued so I can exchange the hurricane bolter for DCCW/HF no problem.

i win with I5
give the sucker a relic blade
i go before you
hit on threes
wound on twos
so depending on how i roll i could kill that librarian before he can do anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aldain wrote:There's no chance the Assault Marines can survive by moving from cover to cover until it's assault time?

nope
dangerous terrain tests will get you
the ground goes "OMNOMNOM" and your marines die

Well, they can still hide behind rhinos.

NoToTheMan wrote:i win with I5
give the sucker a relic blade
i go before you
hit on threes
wound on twos
so depending on how i roll i could kill that librarian before he can do anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aldain wrote:There's no chance the Assault Marines can survive by moving from cover to cover until it's assault time?

nope
dangerous terrain tests will get you
the ground goes "OMNOMNOM" and your marines die

No one is arguing the fact that the captain can beat a Libby in hth but wh40k is not a 1 vs1 game. The Libby provides much more army wide buffs than the captain does and he does it for 100 pts a captain for less than 130 pts is really meh

NoToTheMan wrote:i win with I5
give the sucker a relic blade
i go before you
hit on threes
wound on twos
so depending on how i roll i could kill that librarian before he can do anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aldain wrote:There's no chance the Assault Marines can survive by moving from cover to cover until it's assault time?

nope
dangerous terrain tests will get you
the ground goes "OMNOMNOM" and your marines die

1) The librarian shouldn't go toe to toe with anything it can't handle. It's mostly a support role, and we're not playing Street Fighter.

2) You don't have to land on difficult/dangerous terrain to get cover. The idea is to land behind them.

except that doesn't give you cover
you're not in cover ergo you don't get cover
the most you can hope for is your opponent not being able to see you

NoToTheMan wrote:except that doesn't give you cover
you're not in cover ergo you don't get cover
the most you can hope for is your opponent not being able to see you

Umm, no, that's not how cover works. You don't have to be in area terrain to get a cover save. Feel free to read the section on cover in the rulebook for more information.

Dracos wrote:

NoToTheMan wrote:except that doesn't give you cover
you're not in cover ergo you don't get cover
the most you can hope for is your opponent not being able to see you

Umm, no, that's not how cover works. You don't have to be in area terrain to get a cover save. Feel free to read the section on cover in the rulebook for more information.

feel free to read the impaler cannon entry for Codex: Tyranids

Other units in front of the unit being fired upon can give that unit a 4+ cover save....

except the unit is not in or touching cover, they're hiding behind some guys
and why would you have another unit in front of assault marines?
those suckers move 12" at a time
nothing else in this guys list moves faster
he's not getting cover without making dangerous terrain tests

NoToTheMan wrote:

Dracos wrote:

NoToTheMan wrote:except that doesn't give you cover
you're not in cover ergo you don't get cover
the most you can hope for is your opponent not being able to see you

Umm, no, that's not how cover works. You don't have to be in area terrain to get a cover save. Feel free to read the section on cover in the rulebook for more information.

feel free to read the impaler cannon entry for Codex: Tyranids

Hive guard shooting at a unit of assault marines and not armour = win for SM!

NoToTheMan wrote:except the unit is not in or touching cover, they're hiding behind some guys
and why would you have another unit in front of assault marines?
those suckers move 12" at a time
nothing else in this guys list moves faster
he's not getting cover without making dangerous terrain tests

Though the purpose of the assault marines wouldn't be to rush up the field as fast as they could, they'd be there to help the tac squads out when enemy meele got a little too close for comfort.. much like the Ironclad Dread.

Since there's been no fingerpointing and laughing I'm going to assume the list itself isn't horrible. But isn't there anyone with an idea for what to spend the last points on? Teudurur has a valid point with dropping the assaults and going with a landraider + assault termies, anyone else care to chime in?

Librarian is the best HQ choice.

Assault marines as you've equipped them are really fragile and poor. I could see going with a larger squad with a couple of flamers, as they could legitimately threaten light infantry, though they're sadly still a bit overcosted in the current SM codex. Ironclad hurricane bolter is not really good. Better to go HtH. Podding is the classic delivery, but honestly, using two Hunter Killers then Running up the field alongside your other units (particularly if you include more dreads) can work quite well. Search the battle reports forum for 40kEnthusiast's Pain Train list. It may be inspiring.

The Vulkan/libby/three podding dreads list someone suggested above is strong, but obviously is a major revision to your list. How major are you willing to go?

Do you have some terminators or other models we can work with for fleshing out the list?

Mannahnin wrote:Librarian is the best HQ choice.

Assault marines as you've equipped them are really fragile and poor. I could see going with a larger squad with a couple of flamers, as they could legitimately threaten light infantry, though they're sadly still a bit overcosted in the current SM codex. Ironclad hurricane bolter is not really good. Better to go HtH. Podding is the classic delivery, but honestly, using two Hunter Killers then Running up the field alongside your other units (particularly if you include more dreads) can work quite well. Search the battle reports forum for 40kEnthusiast's Pain Train list. It may be inspiring.

The Vulkan/libby/three podding dreads list someone suggested above is strong, but obviously is a major revision to your list. How major are you willing to go?

Do you have some terminators or other models we can work with for fleshing out the list?

I'm alright with doing some major revisions. If there's a place for what I've got painted that'd be nice though (see first post for list), since I paint very slowly. The only real preference I have is No Freakin' Pods. Spent a month painting one, hated every minute of it, and at the end it came out looking so bad I'm ashamed to show it in public. Seriously, it's got crooked wings with chafed off paint and everything. Ugh.

Other than what's painted I've currently got a Predator primed, enough bits to assemble one full Tactical squad, one Devastator squad, one Assault Squad and one Terminator squad. The termies I mainly got because they're so awesome in appearance. I know they're not that great gameplay-wise.
I have no problem with buying more models though, Christmas is around the corner after all

À slightly unorthodox list containing most of what you have could be something along the lines of this; a Libby ,5 termis in a lrc ( with mm), 2x ironclads with with the same configuration as the one you have(except for the hurricane bolters) 2 full tactical squads in rhinos ( with mg and combi melta) , 1 five man tactical squad with a lasplas razorback and two aclc preds. That's 1745 pts so throw some mbs on one squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for the crappy format, doing this on an iPhone makes it somewhat difficult

I like the looks of Tedurer's suggested list. It's got a lot of lascannons and other 48" shots, good amounts of melta, a lot of armor, and between the preds, Ironclads, and LR, a lot of that armor is high AV.

I'd be inclined to with a regular LR or a Redeemer over a crusader, though.

NoToTheMan wrote:except the unit is not in or touching cover, they're hiding behind some guys
and why would you have another unit in front of assault marines?
those suckers move 12" at a time
nothing else in this guys list moves faster
he's not getting cover without making dangerous terrain tests

Rhinos/Razorback move 12, pop smokes. Assault marines hide behind it. If the enemy can't see them by LOS, they can't fire. If they can, that's a 4+ cover save.

And yes, they get cover saves when they're behind another unit. Page 21 of the rulebook.

Although personally, I don't think Assault marines have a place for this list. At most, they can be counter-chargers or baits. They're also soft enough to not last in CC, so tying up something would not last that much.

Sadly, I gotta throw my voice in against assault marines as well. I tried to get them to work for months and against anything in power armor or that is semi-capable in melee they don't do well at all.

They only really work supporting other melee units (TH/SS termies), picking on small squads (Devastators...if you can get to them) and lone tanks, or really bad in melee units like Tau, Imp guard and sometimes gaunts.