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The vehicle upgrade of chain-snares is causing some concern, since it causes hits on any unit that is passes over, applied immediately (to parphrase pg 63 of the DE codex)

This doesnt require a tank shock, merely passing over. So we have to determine what happens when a vehicel passes over a unit, turns and then passes over the unit again. And again. And again. Since with another upgrade (aethersails) may be giving the vehicle a LOT of passes. This came up in a game involving tyranids and chain-snare equipped DE making over a dozen hitting passes (multiple nid units involved, skimmer able to move 6" and hit two units, pivot and repeat).


There doesnt seem to be any limitation in the RAW as to the number of times this can be done in one turn, since the hits are applied immediately and not at the end of the turn.



Sliggoth

RAW also says that movement only counts from your beginning point to your end point. No driving around in circles to rack up distance for cover saves either; just moving from point A to point B and measuring the distance in a straight line between them to determine how far you want.

Cannot remember the exact wording but don't chain-snares require you to move less then a certain speed?

What does it affect? "all unengaged non-vehicle enemy units that it passes over during the Movement phase"

Did it pass over the unit? Yes. Have you applied damage? Yes. Is the rule satisfied now? Yes.

There is no indication that the chain snares would affect the same unit multiple times. It doesn't say anything like 'each time', or 'as it passes over a unit'.

Besides, if you could slice and dice the same unit multiple times, upon touching a unit the vehicle could inflict infinite damage. "I move my vehicle 1/16" of an inch overlapping your guy, then move it back. Repeat 8 times. Repeat that for a spare 6 inches of movement..."

Or, drive the raider over next to an infantry model, and spin it on its base so that the front prow passes over the enemy infantry model repeatedly. You'll notice that you're passing the vehicle over the enemy unit without consuming any movement speed. "That'll be infinite hits against your unit, do you want me to start rolling to wound?"

The explanation of a five point upgrade does not end with "I touch your enemy unit and it takes a million hits" for a valid interpretation.

Tri wrote:Cannot remember the exact wording but don't chain-snares require you to move less then a certain speed?

They did have a movement limitation in the previous codex, but I cannot remember if they have the same limitation in the new codex.

movement is from start to finish only, which is why you cant move 1 inch and claim to be going 6" or more for a jink save as a skimmer.

ie no going in circles in 1 movement phase.

I'd call BS on this. Movement is from start to finish. So if he ends up on the same side he started his move, then he never passed over the enemy unit. If he ends up on the far side of the enemy unit then he gets the hits for that one pass. This does not preclude skimming over top of multiple units as a 36" move could easily do that.

Movement is not start to finish. If there's difficult terrain between me and where I want to go, I can drive around it. My movement distance is measured by the "curved" line around the DT and not the straight line through the DT. Plus, I don't need to make a dangerous terrain check.

The only exception to this is for the bonuses from moving flat out. And, it is specifically mentioned in those rules.

It isn't mentioned in the Chain-snares rules.

I don't know if I'd personally allow going back-and-forth over and over to get a ton of hits. But, you could certainly drive out and over a unit and back to your starting position and get your hits in.

Grakmar wrote:I don't know if I'd personally allow going back-and-forth over and over to get a ton of hits.

Which was covered by this, as I read it:

solkan wrote:What does it affect? "all unengaged non-vehicle enemy units that it passes over during the Movement phase"

Did it pass over the unit? Yes. Have you applied damage? Yes. Is the rule satisfied now? Yes.

There is no indication that the chain snares would affect the same unit multiple times. It doesn't say anything like 'each time', or 'as it passes over a unit'.

kirsanth wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I don't know if I'd personally allow going back-and-forth over and over to get a ton of hits.

Which was covered by this, as I read it:

solkan wrote:What does it affect? "all unengaged non-vehicle enemy units that it passes over during the Movement phase"

Did it pass over the unit? Yes. Have you applied damage? Yes. Is the rule satisfied now? Yes.

There is no indication that the chain snares would affect the same unit multiple times. It doesn't say anything like 'each time', or 'as it passes over a unit'.

Good call!

The one problem that came up is that the wording is "resolved immediately". So as soon as the vehicle passes over the unit the hits have to be applied, not at the end of the movement phase. Passes over could be read as soon as the vehicle first passes over or perhaps once it has entirely passed over So once the vehicle has moved beyond the unit, the DE player turned it around and again moved it so that it passed over the unit. In any case, its that one key phrase that really makes this tough to beat. Pass over the unit and resolve immediately doesnt leave a lot of wiggle room.

It inflicts d3+1 hits, so if a unit has already been hit we cant say that it meets the criteria already either. Since those previous hits have been resolved and are no longer d3+1 but are instead some definite number. So the rule isnt satisfied...since the d3+1 for the first attack set has been resolved as a set number already and is no longer the d3+1 called for in the rule check.

The DE player was quite willing to make sure that he passed well beyond the unit before turning, since there were several nid units close together and he was able to hit one after the other. Against some armies this wouldnt be possible of course, but it was devastating to a nid swarm. Under the conditions that only one unit was getting chain-snared I would think we could rule that the vehicle would have to completely clear the unit by a wide margin, perhaps something like 6" or such...but that would be a house rule.

There is no limit on the speed of the vehicle, the timing of the hits is "resolved immediately" and it only needs to pass over the unit. So any restrictions from the previous codex seem to have been removed.

And with the enhanced aethersails upgrade the skimmer can be moving 24" + 2d6. So 30" of slicing and dicing on average.


An errata or FAQ on this would be nice, but while there is no indication that RAI is for the unit to be able to be hit more than once per turn there is also no RAI to indicate that they cant be. It wouldnt take much to FAQ it down to very limited power, but as it is written right now we dont really see a built in limit of one hit per turn.

At the moment we are playing it as requiring the vehicle to pass completely over the unit, but this still allows a lot of hits at times. The one mitigating factor is that the DE vehicles still can be taken out by almost any hit.



Sliggoth

I follow Solkan's reading, and interpret "immediately" to mean "as soon as you finish moving the model".

A unit can only be hit be the chain snares once for that vehicle. It is written in the rules for chain snares as such, which has been pointed out in this thread a few times.

If you could do it multiple times, you could effectively hit a unit near infinite times. That's no good!

@ Buffo Except that the rule about it affecting units once was in the old codex, not the current codex. There doesnt seem to be anything in the current rule that limits it to one pass per movement phase.

The rule is "A vehicle with chain-snares causes D3+1 S4 AP- hits on all unengaged non-vehicle enemy units that it passes over during the Movement phase, resolved immediately."

There is a reading of the rules that gives us one hit per turn, the problem being that reading requires us to change the rule as it is written. The resolved immediately can be applied to the passes over part of the rule easily, as written there would be no reason to put in the resolved immediately portion if it was to be applied at the end of the movement. There is a reading that gives us an infinite possible number of hits; they do not say move, they say passes. This would seem to require the movement of the body of the vehicle completely over the unit.

So we can see a requirement that the vehicle pass completely over the unit as possibly being a requirement, this does limit the number of attacks since the DE vehicles are all fairly long.


It may be that GW decided that since the vehciles are so fragile that allwoing multiple passes is fine, since it places the vehicle in a very dangerous position after the movement phase. It may be that the removal of the once per turn rule from the previous codex was a carefully thought out change. It may also be that the removal was an oversight. We are lacking any clue as to the RAI at this point tho.


Sliggoth

One thing thats been bugging me ...

BGB, Page 11, Models in the way

.. a model may not move within 1" unless assaulting.

So a raider must move at least its length + 2" (This assumes the model in question was in base contact before the move) ... i haven't got one to hand but I'm fairly sure they're at least 7" long; moving flat out (with 2D6 from whats its face) a raider that starts in B2B could hit the same unit 3 time. (first move from B2B 9" then two 10" moves)

"Immediately" can be read to mean at the end of the move; the reasoning being to make clear that you don't wait until the end of the phase or some other later point; you get to find out whether you've caused enough casualties to kill the unit or force a morale test before you move your next unit.

I believe reading it to allow multiple passes from a single vehicle on the same unit in a single phase stretches seems LESS reasonable and appropriate than Solkan's reading. It also would require you to hold your model in the air with one hand while rolling & resolving the hits with your other hand, which would look rather odd.

I can certainly understand that either interpretation COULD be legitimate, but I think the former interpretation has the following advantages:

1. It seems more likely to be the designers' intent
2. It will not elicit objections from opponents
3, It is in conformity with the sportsmanlike maxim "When in doubt, aspire to the solution which seems less likely to be a loophole."