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They seem good for 75 points a pop. Are they worth the heavy slot? If you use them, do you fill out the squad with 3?

If you're taking them ALWAYS fill them out as 3. You're gonna need the other slots afterall if you're playing Mech. If you're playing infantry and only want transport poppers, then I'd suggest having 2 or three of them in seperate squadrons, but really, who would do that.

Yes, they're worth it. They don't do a whole lot, and their field of target types is pretty narrow, but they're SO cheap, and they're SO good against the targets that they claim to be good against (DE skimmers, for example).

A niche weapon, and I can see them being dropped for other stuff if your HS slots are crammed, but if you're already going with vehicles (or you need the niche), you probably won't have too many regrets spending 75 points on one or two.

Not really all that certain about taking squads of three, though, as that makes them overkill against their primary target while making them a terribly juicy 250 point target...

Especially bad when squadding up makes them destroyed more easily.

Tough call if you take three. You gain amazing anti-infantry and anti-light vehicle. You sacrifice vital Russ FOC spots. I am waiting for my new Hydra to show up from England. The only reason I didn't buy three is that they're $67 total.

Almost becoming a mandatory take for mech armies littered everywhere.

I've run a single one, but prefer a pair them.

grayspark wrote:If you're taking them ALWAYS fill them out as 3. You're gonna need the other slots afterall if you're playing Mech. If you're playing infantry and only want transport poppers, then I'd suggest having 2 or three of them in seperate squadrons, but really, who would do that.

I disagree on the always part. Three can easily become unwieldy and be overkill for many of their primary targets.

A pair is very affordable at 150 points, still very effective against their chosen targets, and you can play all sorts of shenanigans with cover.

@Ailaros. I completely disagree that good targets for Hydras are rare, quite the opposite in fact, the targets they are designed to take out are some of the most common in the game. Their main role is long ranged light anti tank, and considering just about every list in the game has at least some AV11-12 vehicles (and many are in fact built around them) they normally have more things to shoot at than they can possibly engage. There is actually very little that multi shot S7 shooting can't deal with in any case, against infantry they are still a threat due to the number of saves they can force them to make and they threaten everything up to a Land Raider (which is why you bring meltas).

Part of the great thing about Hydras is that you can squadron them, which makes them easier to fit into a list. Obviously if you have the slots free then keeping them separate would be better, but in 99% of games Guard are going to fill their Heavy slots so its more common to see them in squadrons of 2 or even 3.

Don't go there, Powerguy. Ailaros lives in the nth dimension where math and statistics are so warped, that he thinks autocannons are terrible against AV11-12 vehicles.

The dakka dread is amazing. Yes hydra's are also good.

Take 2.

Powerguy wrote:There is actually very little that multi shot S7 shooting can't deal with in any case

Well yes, and lascannons can deal with hordes if you bring enough of them. They're so horribly inefficient at killing hordes, though, that simply looking at raw power is highly misleading.

Same thing for autocannons. Just because spamming 8 or 12 of them means that they can be effective against any one unit doesn't justify taking them. They really should be taken against things which they are the most efficient at. Given that transport rushing can be handled in the movement phase for free (just like how drop pod defense is conducted in the movement phase), they're really only on their A-game against things that are difficult to handle in the movement phase (like wraithlord and DE skimmers with nightshields, etc.)

Hydras aren't a BAD choice, but they are far from the "I SPAM THEM I WINZ!" unit that some people seem to think they are.

Ailaros wrote:Well yes, and lascannons can deal with hordes if you bring enough of them. They're so horribly inefficient at killing hordes, though, that simply looking at raw power is highly misleading.

/headdesk. Here we go again, comparing apples and oranges for the sake of justifying a weak arguement. I don't think anyone would make the arguement that lascannons can deal with hordes EVER as, well, they can't! You pay premium points cost to kill at best a model a turn. Flip that the other way around with autocannons; you DON'T pay a premium points cost to kill at best an AV10-11 transport, this is a much, much better payoff when all is said and done.

Ailaros wrote:Same thing for autocannons. Just because spamming 8 or 12 of them means that they can be effective against any one unit doesn't justify taking them.

They're not only effective against any one unit. They're effective against a plethora, a whole gamut of enemy units and thus will 99.9% of the time always find a target worthy of its attention. That is what justifies taking them.

Ailaros wrote:Hydras aren't a BAD choice, but they are far from the "I SPAM THEM I WINZ!" unit that some people seem to think they are.

I've never met a single IG player who thinks this is the case. I take two in a single FOC slot at 2k points, as that tends to be the points level where the volume of AV11-12 starts getting pretty high, and you also start encountering more skimmers who HATE losing their cover save to S7 shots. I'd hardly call that 'spam' and I've yet to see an IG player soley take Hydras in his heavy slots and win games because of it.

I see this thread rapidly, rapidly degenerating into ye olde autocannon debate again...*battens down the hatches*

L. Wrex

Please, not again.

Why not? We can wind up the whole Dakka IG community all over again! ^_^

L. Wrex

For my 2 cents, the hydra is an amazing buy. With a heavy bolter, it puts out a great deal of firepower, killing light troops easily, causing enough wounds to whittle MEQs and MC down at range and obviously threatening any light-medium armor and skimmers/bikes on the board.

There are a few areas where they don't do so well, but IG have other methods to address those. Heavy armor needs melta, while tough, fast moving, dangerous assaulty stuff (nob bikers, BA assault marines, etc) can die to PSB, plasma, vendettas, etc. Just because a Russ or Medusa can also accomplish those tasks doesn't mean it's the only option to do so.

idk - I like the autocannon HW team as much as the hydra.

Id bring the Hydra if I was trying to saturate the number of AV12 platforms in the list. I wouldnt bring them if they were my only vehicles. I wouldnt bring them if I was maximizing the number of AV14 platforms. Instead Id bring Exterminators with plasma sponsons.

In an all infantry list Id bring autocannon HW teams for BID rolls and scoring or Stormtroopers/Veterans with plasmaguns.

In a Mech list - Id bring 2 or 3, depending on how many Manticores you wanted to play with.

I'd say yes, they are good. I'm surprised that there is less mention though of the "ignores the cover granted to vehicles/units that go flat out/turbo boost". Taking away the greatest strength of fast skimmers has got to be worth something, especially with the new DE codex.

I take two in a single FOC slot at 2k points, as that tends to be the points level where the volume of AV11-12 starts getting pretty high

Eh what? 2K is the points level where the volume of AV12 gets high? IG can make a legal 500p army with 5 AV12 tanks, and at 1500 points they are already at 13 or even 15 in some cases. 2000 points is already absolutely nuts.

It's cool to see that the IG book offers enough variety for people to play the army in different ways. When people mention Russes and Medusas I always get reminded about the very existence of those tanks. It's all Hydras and Manticores around here.

The dakka dread is amazing. Yes hydra's are also good.

Yeah. Which one do I want: A 75 point AV12 tank with 2 TL autocannons with an anti-cover special rule plus a heavy bolter, smokes and searchlight, or a 125 point AV12 walker with 2 BS4 TL autocannons? For the price of 2 Riflemen IG get 3 Hydras plus an extra 25 points to spend. Riflemen are atleast 20 points overpriced if the price of the Hydra is supposed to be balanced.

Ah but the riflemen are always mobile and survive more in CC plus are probably easier to hide

Not to mention if you want you can take 6 of them in separate slots and pod a few

Well, riflemen dreads are in a different army, so you wouldn't expect these models to cost the same.

Dread can move 6" and still fire both autocannons, has higher BS, side armor 12 and doesn't get hit in the rear in melee.

Therion wrote:Eh what? 2K is the points level where the volume of AV12 gets high? IG can make a legal 500p army with 5 AV12 tanks, and at 1500 points they are already at 13 or even 15 in some cases. 2000 points is already absolutely nuts.

If you noticed, I said AV11-12. Not just AV12. IG are an exception rather than the rule when it comes to AV12 spam, and when armour values start getting into the 12-14 mark I look more to Vendettas and Demolishers/Manticores rather than autocannons to wreck vehicles.

Ultimately Hydras are nice to have, but not essential. The volume of fire they throw out for their points cost is pretty impressive, and having squadrons of two allows them to take advantage of terrain without leaving *that* large of a footprint on the table.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: I don't think anyone would make the arguement that lascannons can deal with hordes EVER as, well, they can't! You pay premium points cost to kill at best a model a turn. Flip that the other way around with autocannons; you DON'T pay a premium points cost to kill at best an AV10-11 transport, this is a much, much better payoff when all is said and done.

Against a Rhino, you're spending 75 points to kill a 50 point vehicle. This is a 50% premium.
Against MEq (assuming 4 turns of fire), you're spending 75 points to kill 60 points worth of marines. This is a 25% premium.
Against GeQ (likewise), you're spending 75 points to kill 15 guardsmen (assuming no cover), and 7 or 8. This is spot on if there's no cover, and a 50% markup if your opponent is smart.

And this is just looking at firepower. You also have to consider real factors on the field, such as "why does it matter if I blow up a rhino after it's dropped off it's cargo?" and "how many turns of shooting do I really think I'm going to get if my opponent considers it a threat?" and "how can my opponent deploy and move to reduce the damage I do?"

Once you take a broader look at things, taking a vehicle that is inefficient at what it does makes the vehicle lose it's lustre, unless...

zonino wrote:I'd say yes, they are good. I'm surprised that there is less mention though of the "ignores the cover granted to vehicles/units that go flat out/turbo boost". Taking away the greatest strength of fast skimmers has got to be worth something, especially with the new DE codex.

... you need it.

The hydra may not be able to force your opponent to reroll passed cover saves on units which the weapon is crappy against, but it always IGNORES cover against certain ass-pain targets, and is ALWAYS twin-linked. That and it can move and still do some shooting.

The hydra is way better than it's autocannon HWS equivalent, and if you need those specific hydra things, then it's definitely worth taking. Of course, if you don't need the niche filled...

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Hydras aren't a BAD choice, but they are far from the "I SPAM THEM I WINZ!" unit that some people seem to think they are.

I've never met a single IG player who thinks this is the case.

I've seen a lot of froth-at-the-mouth zeal for autocannons in my time here, and it's easy to draw the above comment when people post things like this in this thread:

Powerguy wrote: I completely disagree that good targets for Hydras are rare, quite the opposite in fact, the targets they are designed to take out are some of the most common in the game. Their main role is long ranged light anti tank, and considering just about every list in the game has at least some AV11-12 vehicles (and many are in fact built around them) they normally have more things to shoot at than they can possibly engage. There is actually very little that multi shot S7 shooting can't deal with in any case, against infantry they are still a threat due to the number of saves they can force them to make and they threaten everything up to a Land Raider (which is why you bring meltas).

Yes, hydras are your savior. Because EVERYONE takes mech armies, they respond to the very heart of the holy meta itself. They are great against absolutely everything except land raiders. The field is full of endless targets that can be easily destroyed. You'd be foolish ever to build a list that didn't include 9 of them...

Ailaros wrote:snip

I've heard all of this many, many times before. I've presented my own opinions, as have others, and we keep coming back to the same old repetition.

That 'froth-at-the-mouth zeal' is actually a pretty decent evaluation of an autocannons ability. You seem unable to comprehend that some people might actually enjoy having a little versatility in their armoury rather than an 'all X' or 'all Y' all the time approach. This blog might help shed some light on why as well: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-to-suppression-fire.html

L. Wrex

I have an Eldar opponent that will not move flatout do to mine being on the table.
as crazy as it sounds, you also have to consider factors outside of it's actual output,
such as how it may actually slow someone down just by being there.
I respect A-man's opinon, but have to completely disagree as well. mine have always shined
against Eldar or SM. even if you just take out his 50 point ride, you still making him walk, into deadlier fire even.
and i've had a few MCs find out how well they work as well.

I would say that the Hydra is not only a prodigious killer of bikes, it's an area denial weapon. Much like camping HWS's.

Pair 2 squads of 2 with a manticore or 2 manticore and a squad of 2 hydras.

The 2 hydra squads taken to tournies where you know there are going to be a lot of mechanized, 2 manticores where you know there will be a lot of herp derpin with expensive high (13+) AVs.

These are the ideal loadouts for your heavy slots either way you go if you are not going to do Lemans. imo, you either go all lemans or all chimera chassis stuff anyways.

thats actually what I run, 2x2 Hydras, 1x Manticore, The hydras are more for the daemon players though as the Marine players think LR spam is the only way ...

Ailaros wrote:Snip a bunch of crap

Yes, yes, we're all going to listen to you evaluate things you never use, and by your own admission lose more games than you win.

Yes, hydras are your savior. Because EVERYONE takes mech armies, they respond to the very heart of the holy meta itself. They are great against absolutely everything except land raiders. The field is full of endless targets that can be easily destroyed. You'd be foolish ever to build a list that didn't include 9 of them...

Way to infer that anyone in this thread is suggesting spamming hydras. They are a very good choice for one of your heavy support slots if you don't have autocannons or similar anti-transport vehicles elsewhere in your army. Your strawman arguments are getting weaker every day.

Hey, an autocannon called, this is what it had to say:

They are great. I would personally run 2 units of 2, that seems to work a lot. Units of 3 become to cumbersome.
They are death incarnate to Eldar (Both flavors) and counter the meta, mech, very well.

@ Doomsayers, just remember, as bad as this gets....it will never be as bad as the Multilaser Chimera debate. Just remember that.

No one seriously thinks spamming these things, if they imply it, they are sadly mistaken because there are other things that the heavies have to do and you gotta bring at least one.

Ailaros, you gotta realize that to survive in a tournament setting, even in my area where a lot of people resent me because of bringing tanks, they themselves bring quite a few vehicle delivery systems.

Autocannons are the #1 mixture of versatility/cheapness.

Name 5 things that autocannons cannot hurt at all or do something to and you will realize how versatile they really are. for 75 pts you can get 2 of them twin linked on an AV12 platform.

Yes, it may take a heavy slot but what other cheap, effective unit can we find that has enough shots to compensate for the low bs skill or low AV for cheap units (artillery)? Manticores.

Take this all into account and you see how (points wise, and dependability-wise) the manticore and hydras provide the best amount of shots and S value to the heavy slot

I'm sorry but unless you're spamming lemans at 2500 or something, i would suggest leaving lemans to the fun games to just mess with your opponent (eluding to my Imperial Armor usage in me local escalation)