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Okay, so the 'Power From Pain' rule generates a pain token whenever an enemy non-vehicle unit is 'destroyed'.

The question is, I want to know how exactly you going to play that this rule when dealing with enemy units that have joined ICs and also enemy retinue units (where the IC doesn't become an IC until the rest of his unit is wiped out). I decided not to go with a poll thread here because I think the potential responses are a bit to varied, so please explain how you'll play and why.


1) First off, my theories on ICs being joined to a unit:

When it comes to Kill Points, they are calculated at the end of the game, which to me means you look at the total number of units that were destroyed, not how they were destroyed. That means an IC who was killed while part of a unit would still be a separate Kill Point. But I feel this is different from the 'Power from Pain' rule which is during the game and immediately give out a result whenever a unit in the game is destroyed.

I think in most cases most people play that when an IC is joined to a unit that means there is then only 1 unit in the game. For example, if the Doom of Malan'tai is within 6" of a unit containing a joined IC I don't think anyone would play that the Doom's 'Spirit Leech' is then resolved against both the unit and separately against the IC as well, because when the IC is joined to the unit there is essentially only one unit in play.

Since the rules state that a joined IC cannot leave the unit except during its movement phase (rulebook p48), I play that a joined IC counts as being part of the unit he was joined to even if the rest of the unit is wiped out by shooting or an assault. He only counts as no longer being part of that unit in his next movement phase. So if the rest of his unit is killed by shooting for example, he still has to take a morale test as if he was the last member of the unit and the enemy unit that shot and wiped out the rest of his unit is still allowed to assault him in the subsequent assault phase (because he still counts as being part of the same unit).

Because of these points I think that a unit that contains a joined IC (or even multiple joined ICs) only gives up a single pain token when destroyed. And furthermore, if the rest of the unit is killed in the shooting phase (but the IC survived) it would not give up a pain token because one model (the IC is left alive). If the IC is then killed in the subsequent assault phase, then a single pain token would be surrendered as the last model from the unit (the IC) had now been killed and the unit is fully destroyed. However, if the IC then survived to his next movement phase he would count as having left the unit and at THAT point a pain token would be generated for the former unit and klling the IC from that point on would then generate a 2nd pain token.

Now, a few things about this point of view: Some people might say 'but the unit and the IC are clearly separate units picked from separate codex entries. And to rebut this idea I would point to the fact that the rules for 'Power for Pain' only reference units being destroyed...which to me speaks about actual units destroyed during the game, NOT what their status was before or after the game...and this again goes back to the whole Doom of Malan'tai example. I think most people most of the time play that an IC joined to a unit = 1 unit at that point in the game.

The problem I have with trying to play that way is that I don't think most people will like the concept of a pain token suddenly 'popping' into in the ICs next movement phase if he survives the rest of his unit being wiped out. But if we're going to play that as soon as the unit surrounding the IC is killed he immediately counts as being a separate unit, then are people going to stop allowing the IC to be assaulted by the enemy unit that shot and wiped out the unit the IC was joined to?

I don't see that happening so I'd personally like to play in a way that is consistent, but it does create a very awkward situation.



2) Second, my theories regarding 'retinue' units (where the character doesn't become an IC until the rest of the unit is wiped out).

IMHO, when it comes to retinues, there is only a single unit. If the rest of the models in the unit are wiped out then the character becomes an IC, but I don't personally think any 'new' unit has been created, rather the last model in the unit has simply been granted access to a new rule (the IC rule) because the rest of his unit was killed. That's why, for example, I play that when it comes to Victory Points, an IC and a retinue combine all their points together because there is never a time where the character and his unit can operate separately.

I know Kill Points are still awarded separately for an IC that is joined to a unit, but that is a specific exception given for Kill Points...if that exception wasn't in the rules then I think a unit containing a joined IC that was wiped out would be worth 1 total Kill Point.

Because of those two points I think a retinue unit (including the character) is only ever worth 1 pain token under any circumstance and as long as the character is still alive (even after he becomes an IC), the pain token is not awarded until he is killed. Of course, if he goes an joins another unit...well then I guess you'd only be able to get 1 pain token for wiping out the new unit with the joined IC!



So anyway, I'm not even sure how I should be playing this. How will you be playing this and why?

just for simplicity sake, im prolly gonna play it killpoint style.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:just for simplicity sake, im prolly gonna play it killpoint style.

Yeah, I think that may be the best option, but I'm wondering what percentage of people will want to play it differently and if so, how?

I agree that your interpretation is exactly consistent with the rules, and that anything else is not adhering to the fact that the IC and any unit it joins form a single unit as per the rules.

However, playing that way seems somewhat unwieldy. So far I've been playing it essentially the "KP" way. I don't like the idea of an IC surviving and going from one squad to another, never giving up a pain token because he is hiding in a new squad.

I think one way to look at it is evidenced by the question on the new FAQ. Its not directly related, but it kinda shows how GW sees an IC with the unit.

Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a
squad effect working out if a squad is below half strength
or not? (p48)
A: Independent Characters are not counted when working
out if a squad is below half strength or not. The exception
to this is if an Independent Character is with a Retinue (in
which case he is counted when working out if the squad is
below half strength).

Perhaps this question sheds some light on the topic. If an IC is not part of the unit for determining if it is below 50%, then it seems to me that GW considers them to be 2 separate units still, even though for most purposes they are one. This would still not give a pain token until the IC is killed in the case of a retinue, but in the case of a IC with any other unit they should both give up pain tokens.

As I said at the start though, I think playing as you describe most closely follows the way the rule is worded. Having said that, I'd be willing to bet that if they FAQ it you will see it played in a way that is consistent with this related ruling.

I think what it comes down to is what to do when a Dark Eldar player is in an Annihilation scenario.

A Dark Eldar unit has just killed an IC which was attached to another unit.
DE Player: "So, I get a kill point for that, right?"
Other Player: "Yep, he's a unit."
DE Player: "And I get a pain token, too, right?"
Other Player: "Well..."

I think the GW FAQ could go either way, at the moment. I just don't want to try to explain to someone else why an IC would be worth a kill point but not a pain token.

I concur with Solkan and Dracos.

I understand your rationale, Yak, and agree with it. I just think it's problematic and will encounter resistance. Matching it to KPs makes it more intuitive and easier to play.

We've been playing it as 1 unit 1 token. Kill points are calculated at the end of the game and IMO should not have been brought into comparison.

IC+Co.=1 unit for all game purposes other than bits of combat.

End of game is when one looks at army list and check which units have been destroyed - no as their dying funnily enough
"At the end of the game, each player receives
1 ‘kill point’ for each enemy unit that has been
completely destroyed." - 91.

Kill point style.

If only because it is more intuitive, and I believe GW will FAQ it that way should they ever get around to it.

ChrisCP wrote:We've been playing it as 1 unit 1 token. Kill points are calculated at the end of the game and IMO should not have been brought into comparison.

IC+Co.=1 unit for all game purposes other than bits of combat.

End of game is when one looks at army list and check which units have been destroyed - no as their dying funnily enough
"At the end of the game, each player receives
1 ‘kill point’ for each enemy unit that has been
completely destroyed." - 91.

I'm going to play devil's advocate against you and myself here, so bear with me.


While I was typing up my above argument it occurred to me that with that line of reasoning (which you've repeated in your post) shouldn't units that are generated during the game (but aren't on your army list) no count for any Kill Points then? Things like Nurgling bases created by Ku'gath, Termagant units created by a Tervigon, etc, etc, etc. It does seem like an inconsistency to me.

Hehe that is naughty it's true I put in the army list there for 'ease' of counting!
Hmm, if only epi used units we could haave the straight and narrow

As a Dark Eldar player, if I destroy an IC and the unit it was attached to, I'll be getting my two pain tokens, thank you very much.

Two units, two pain tokens, Retinue or not.

Just my two cents.

BuFFo wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, if I destroy an IC and the unit it was attached to, I'll be getting my two pain tokens, thank you very much.

Two units, two pain tokens, Retinue or not.

Just my two cents.

So if the Doom of Malan'tai was within 6" of one of your Dark Eldar units that had an IC joined to it, would you resolve his 'Spirit Leech' twice, once against the unit and a second time against the joined IC because that's a second unit?

Just wondering...because I think I'm leaning towards the Kill Point solution because its vastly cleaner, but I certainly don't see it as something that is a clear path, which is the feeling I get from your post.

BuFFo wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, if I destroy an IC and the unit it was attached to, I'll be getting my two pain tokens, thank you very much.

Two units, two pain tokens, Retinue or not.

Just my two cents.

As a dark eldar player, I intuitively went with 1 unit 1 token, after I had just beaten a single unit in CC. Also with shooting if the last model to be removed is the IC one hasn't actually killed the unit one was shooting at as that unit was at that point in time both sets of models, same as the IC and the unit wouldn't both have taken morale checks for 25% casualties. But the retinue point is interesting also if the IC is last to go "Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed" you would not RAW have two PFP tokens from that, as it's 1 unit and when the last member is alive it become an IC, so one never kills that first unit!

I understand the reasoning, and the RAW certainly seems to fit that way - however I would certainly not look to play it that way! It would get horribly complicated remembering which remnant counted or not....

Dracos wrote:I agree that your interpretation is exactly consistent with the rules, and that anything else is not adhering to the fact that the IC and any unit it joins form a single unit as per the rules.

However, playing that way seems somewhat unwieldy. So far I've been playing it essentially the "KP" way. I don't like the idea of an IC surviving and going from one squad to another, never giving up a pain token because he is hiding in a new squad.

I think one way to look at it is evidenced by the question on the new FAQ. Its not directly related, but it kinda shows how GW sees an IC with the unit.

Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a
squad effect working out if a squad is below half strength
or not? (p48)
A: Independent Characters are not counted when working
out if a squad is below half strength or not. The exception
to this is if an Independent Character is with a Retinue (in
which case he is counted when working out if the squad is
below half strength).

Perhaps this question sheds some light on the topic. If an IC is not part of the unit for determining if it is below 50%, then it seems to me that GW considers them to be 2 separate units still, even though for most purposes they are one. This would still not give a pain token until the IC is killed in the case of a retinue, but in the case of a IC with any other unit they should both give up pain tokens.

As I said at the start though, I think playing as you describe most closely follows the way the rule is worded. Having said that, I'd be willing to bet that if they FAQ it you will see it played in a way that is consistent with this related ruling.

Dracos I agree with your post for the most part but I believe you are incorrect regarding the new faq.

Q: Does an Independent Character count towards the
number of models in a squad when determining if it is
above half strength? (p48)
A: Yes he does. So if an Independent Character joined a
unit of 6 models there would need to be reduced to 2 or
less models for it to be below half strength.

yakface wrote:

BuFFo wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, if I destroy an IC and the unit it was attached to, I'll be getting my two pain tokens, thank you very much.

Two units, two pain tokens, Retinue or not.

Just my two cents.

So if the Doom of Malan'tai was within 6" of one of your Dark Eldar units that had an IC joined to it, would you resolve his 'Spirit Leech' twice, once against the unit and a second time against the joined IC because that's a second unit?

Just wondering...because I think I'm leaning towards the Kill Point solution because its vastly cleaner, but I certainly don't see it as something that is a clear path, which is the feeling I get from your post.

What about this situation?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330010.page

Here we have a situation where an IC counts as its own unit for combat drugs, but for pain tokens he wouldn't?

I understand that many of us want to RAW everything possible, but sometimes, you just have to use common sense, because this is 40k, and the rules are kept loose for players to mess around with as they see fit to enhance the game. You can't take an IC an apply one situation across all possibilities. You just have to judge each situation on its own, and see if it makes the most sense.

As for a Retinue, I would get two pain tokens, because I still destroyed two units, not one, when all is said and done.

Just my opinion.

I think one of the best reasons to just calculate the Pain Tokens "kill point style" (as mentioned above) can be seen right here in this post.

In Yak's original post, he had to type a 35 line explanation (not counting double spacing) of not using a kill point style method of calculation.

It seems infinitely less complicated to use the kill point style.

my iron lung wrote:Dracos I agree with your post for the most part but I believe you are incorrect regarding the new faq.

Q: Does an Independent Character count towards the
number of models in a squad when determining if it is
above half strength? (p48)
A: Yes he does. So if an Independent Character joined a
unit of 6 models there would need to be reduced to 2 or
less models for it to be below half strength.

That is the old FAQ ruling, the new one is as Dracos Quoted.

As far as the original Post goes... Seeing s how the IC cannot leave a unit until the owning players movement Phase, I suppose that Shooting down a unit+IC would only Garner 1 Pain token; KP should be the same as only 1 unit has been destroyed(KP's also specify that Retinue+ IC only gives 1 KP no matter what; not that that makes any sense given that the IC reverts to full IC status and beciomes a second unit if the Retinue alone is destroyed, but I guess he is a special "last man standing" for that unit).

In assault, however, the IC+Unit count as 2 separate units for the entirety of the combat, and the combat itself is considered of the "multiple" variety; therefore as you can destroy both units separately you should be able to get 2 KPs and 2 pain tokens for destroying both in an assault phase.

I would go with the kill point method. Sure there are plenty of ways to start off the game with pain tokens but you have to earn the rest. This is tough on a glass hammer army so don't ding them. That's how I see it .

An IC attached to a unit fighting a single enemy unit does not make a "multiple" combat. The character is treated as a seperate unit for purposes of allocating and resolving attacks, but he is still part of the unit. They take one Morale test if they lose; not two.

I'm going to have to say 2 tokens.

Say a unit of 9 guys and an IC are in HtH and the only enemy model in BtB with him has a PF. Hits from the higher IN members outnumber the 9 models yet the IC will not take any wounds as he is treated as a separate unit in HtH. Likewise if the regular squad has a single model remaining and more wounds are put on the IC than he has the excess ones will not carry over to the other model. You are, in essence, fighting 2 units.

I would play it using the KP method.

1 KP = 1 token - minus vehicles, which PtP says it cannot benefit from.

But you're not, you're fighting one unit which consists of an IC and some other models. Otherwise one would have to do two of eveything else to the unit, like; running, LD, morale, Terrain tests... So if you want to do that too, imo, I'll take the two pain tokens!

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I'm going to have to say 2 tokens.

Say a unit of 9 guys and an IC are in HtH and the only enemy model in BtB with him has a PF. Hits from the higher IN members outnumber the 9 models yet the IC will not take any wounds as he is treated as a separate unit in HtH. Likewise if the regular squad has a single model remaining and more wounds are put on the IC than he has the excess ones will not carry over to the other model. You are, in essence, fighting 2 units.

You seem to only be considering close combat. A unit containing an IC can be wiped out by shooting in which case wounds are allocated to the IC and other models in the unit freely.

And the CC rules are clear...ICs joined to a unit attack and are attacked like they are a separate unit, but they are *not* actually a separate unit and combat resolution against the unit with the IC is resolved with the IC fully being part of the unit as well.


Just sayin.

So if I cause more wounds to the unit than there are regular Joes do the excess wounds carry over to the IC? If not you are fighting 2 units ergo 2 pain tokens if you kill them both.

They are a multi assault from moving assaulting units, through the last attacks removing casualties; they immediately revert to 1 unit right when you start Determining Assault Results.

Therefore if the IC(or his joined squad) is Killed as an individual unit, he/they grant a pain token(That Unit was destroyed), if the combined IC+Whoever gets destroyed via Sweeping Advance only 1 Pain token will be given as you have only destroyed 1 unit. If both IC and Unit were destroyed by actual Close combat attacks(during I10-1) then they grant 2 Pain tokens.

GreenNutz: in the Shooting Phase you are only shooting at the 1 unit: IC+Squad If there are 10 members of the Squad and 1 IC, and that unit takes 15 wounds from 1 shooting attack(s) then they will all have to take 1 save, and 4 models of your opponent choosing will have to take a second.

Kommissar Kel wrote:They are a multi assault from moving assaulting units, through the last attacks removing casualties; they immediately revert to 1 unit right when you start Determining Assault Results.

Therefore if the IC(or his joined squad) is Killed as an individual unit, he/they grant a pain token(That Unit was destroyed), if the combined IC+Whoever gets destroyed via Sweeping Advance only 1 Pain token will be given as you have only destroyed 1 unit. If both IC and Unit were destroyed by actual Close combat attacks(during I10-1) then they grant 2 Pain tokens.

GreenNutz: in the Shooting Phase you are only shooting at the 1 unit: IC+Squad If there are 10 members of the Squad and 1 IC, and that unit takes 15 wounds from 1 shooting attack(s) then they will all have to take 1 save, and 4 models of your opponent choosing will have to take a second.

I could go into why I think this is incorrect, but it really doesn't matter.

The point is, are you going to play this way? That in combat the unit (with joined IC) can give up 2 pain tokens if killed outright, but only 1 if killed by a sweeping advance or by 'No Retreat!' wounds? And only 1 pain token if this unit is killed by shooting?

I would imagine most people you play with would get a bit confused...

yakface wrote:I could go into why I think this is incorrect, but it really doesn't matter.

The point is, are you going to play this way? That in combat the unit (with joined IC) can give up 2 pain tokens if killed outright, but only 1 if killed by a sweeping advance or by 'No Retreat!' wounds? And only 1 pain token if this unit is killed by shooting?

I would imagine most people you play with would get a bit confused...

I really haven't decided yet.

This is the same reason i do not attempt to put a burna on a Big mek for the Bonus attack in the event that I didn't shoot it as a flamer in the shooting phase; it gets really confusing.

Honestly this issue made me think of how it applies to KP; which is in exactly the same way. Both depend on the destruction of units, and depending on how you destroy ICs+squads will depend on how many "units" you have destroyed. I will play test a few games with my usual opponent after explaining the relevant rules to see just how it impacts the game.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
This is the same reason i do not attempt to put a burna on a Big mek for the Bonus attack in the event that I didn't shoot it as a flamer in the shooting phase; it gets really confusing.

Huh?

ChrisCP wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
This is the same reason i do not attempt to put a burna on a Big mek for the Bonus attack in the event that I didn't shoot it as a flamer in the shooting phase; it gets really confusing.

Huh?

He's talking about a Big Mek that has a Slugga and a Burna, but a Burna can only be used as a power weapon if it didn't fire in the shooting phase. So if you fire in the shooting phase with the burna you don't get the +1A bonus, but if you don't fire with it you do get the +1A bonus and power weapon attacks.

So I think he's saying it can be confusing to remember this fact, so he doesn't bother giving the Mek the burna to alleviate the issue.