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I have a little question and another bigger question regarding Dark Eldar combat drugs, the little question is: do you roll just once for the whole army so they all have the same effect, or once for each unit? I'm pretty certain you only do it once for the army, but thought I'd double check.


Now for the bigger question. Here is the bit of the rule that has got me thinking....

Codex: Dark Eldar wrote:All units in your army that have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game, note that the effects aren't cumulative.

Example: Archon with combat drugs in a unit of Incubi.
If the rule was phrased "All models in your army" it would be clear that only the Archon would get the bonus, but what defines the "unit" having combat drugs? Does the unit count as "a unit in your army that has combat drugs" if one model has them and the others don't? That would therefore mean the whole unit would benefit from the effect.

I dont know if I'm just being anal about it, but I cant see an obvious explanation. What's your view Dakka?

if only the Archon has the drugs then only he benifits from them.

if the Incubi had them they would benifit, but not the Archon(no priximity highs )

if both had them they benifit seperatly, but not cumulativly.

Thats what I thought (logically), but going by the wording of the rule, I can't see how you could argue that the unit doesn't have combat drugs when one of the models does.

An Archon is a unit of 1 model, so if he has them, and the unit he is ATTACHED to doesn't, then only he benefits.

"the unit" doesnt have drugs; only one member of the unit does.

Technically the archon loses drugs, as he is not a unit by himself as soon as he joins the Incubi.

You also only roll once for the whole amy, as it says in the rules...

Nos, the roll is made pre-deployment, so the archon would be considered his own unit until attached to the incubi during deployment, right?

No, as it states they benefit for the whole game, implying it isnt a change for that game, made at the start, but something that requires the continual presence of the drugs - "all units WITH combat drugs"

The archon+incubi is not a unit "with" combat drugs, it is a unit where some of the unit has combat drugs.

I wouldnt play it that way - just archon has drugs, Incubi dont, so only Archon benefits.

It reminds me of the whole Red Thirst debate

This is really different though - the Archon clearly needs the drug dispenser to benefit - he can't leech it from the Incubi.

Well quite a few of the Drugs do benefit the Archon even while he is attached to the Incubi.

The pain Token; since it seems to be given the moment the drugs are rolled for.

The +1 Str; He is his own unit while making attacks so the +1 Str comes into Play during the only time it would come into play(Barring a special rule calling for a Str test)

The +1 Initiative; for the same reasons as the Str, but would not apply to the Sweeping advance check, or any other unit I test(Might still apply to JoTWW, becuase that calls for the model to test, but then might not because that model is part of a non-drug taking unit; fuzzy)

The +1 WS; see Str

The re-roll failed to wounds; He is his own unit while making attacks so the Re-roll comes into Play during the only time it would come into play

The +1 Attack; He is his own unit while making attacks so the bonus attackl comes into Play during the only time it would come into play

Only the Running Bonus would be absolutely negated, since the unit running does not have drugs.

Being that the Archon is an IC he is a Separate unit from the Incbi, and thus would start the game with whatever benefit available to him, even if he starts attached to the Incubi; since the only time we grant him the Benefit is at the beginning of the game, and we do not know if that is before or after Deployment(I would assume before since Dice have already been rolled, thus the Game has begun)

KK - even if it did count for JotWW, as he is >I5 base it doesnt make any difference...

Why is no one quoting the rules? =p

Page....69? The IC entry specifically notes that if an IC has a special rule and joins a unit, the unit does not benefit from the special rule and vice versus.

It was more about whether the "unit" in the combat drugs rules requires the entire unit to have the drugs or not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:KK - even if it did count for JotWW, as he is >I5 base it doesnt make any difference...

You know I like to be thorough, and add technicalities(when i actually look up the rules); While it doesn't matter(nor would any other unit with CD joined by an IC without, because they are all I5 or greater), it would/could come up(mayhaps through negative modifiers from some source).

Dashofpepper wrote: if an IC has a special rule and joins a unit, the unit does not benefit from the special rule

(I think...I don't have the codex with me atm) Combat drugs is a piece of wargear that confers the bonus, not a special rule.

Gorechild wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: if an IC has a special rule and joins a unit, the unit does not benefit from the special rule

(I think...I don't have the codex with me atm) Combat drugs is a piece of wargear that confers the bonus, not a special rule.

It's messed up because in the units' entries Combat Drugs are listed as wargear, but on page 25 of the Codex, they are defined under special rules.

But by the same token, Poisoned Weapons are also defined under special rules and are lised as wargear and weapons later on in the codex.

So they are either both wargear and special rules, or neither.

Combat Drugs are a piece of wargear that gives the bearer a special rule. just like Terminator armor, Power Weapons, Force Weapons....

Grey Templar wrote:Combat Drugs are a piece of wargear that gives the bearer a special rule. just like Terminator armor, Power Weapons, Force Weapons....

Yes but the rules for force weapons and treminator armour are discribed in the wargear section, Combat drugs aren't. Combat drugs are defined in the army wide special rules for Dark eldar, but they are listed in each units entry as a piece of wargear.

That is actually because many units have them, and it explains in the rule that every unit gets the same result; this would be hard to do correctly in the Wargear Section.

As for the Poisoned ranged weapons; that is because Poisoned weapons are a CCW Special rule, and while the writers ignored that for hellfire rounds(which not even a handful of units can use anyways); most every unit in the DE 'dex can use some sort of Poisoned Ranged weapon.

So they are kinda both Army wide Special rules, and Wargear Items; but the Special rules is only how to apply the wargear items within the game.

Gorechild wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Combat Drugs are a piece of wargear that gives the bearer a special rule. just like Terminator armor, Power Weapons, Force Weapons....

Yes but the rules for force weapons and treminator armour are discribed in the wargear section, Combat drugs aren't. Combat drugs are defined in the army wide special rules for Dark eldar, but they are listed in each units entry as a piece of wargear.

actually, Force weapons, with the exception of the DH and WH codexs, are described in the BRB under psykers.

Gavin Thorne wrote:Nos, the roll is made pre-deployment, so the archon would be considered his own unit until attached to the incubi during deployment, right?

This is correct. The units get their bonus before anyone even has the opportunity join any squad, eliminating any shenanigans.

The phrase 'note that the effects aren't cumulative' puzzles me. Cumulative with what? It's one roll, army-wide to see what benefit eligible units get, right?

Please slap me if I'm being dense.

No you are not being dense, the writer was being Obtuse.

GW rules-monkeys seem to love to add in bits to the rules that don't need to be there or just Plain confuse us Lawyer-monkeys when another rules-monkey writes a rule that omits the useless bits (See all other deep-striking transports with an Open top or Assault Ramp vs the Raider; and the debates about how you should be able to assault out of a raider that deep-strikes via Duke Sliscus. Note: the Deepstrike rules state that you cannot, just not blatantly).

There's yet more complication...

One item is the drug that increases Run performance. The IC wouldn't get that if he was in a unit due to the usual issues of moving at the slowest rate of the unit.

The other item is the pain token. If the IC gets the token, he could then leave the unit, and leave the token with the unit, effectively giving that unit the benefits of the drugs. This would seem to be a legal way to do it, but there is some question of whether some other rule says "can't benefit" and that meaning you can't give then pain token over.

Dashofpepper wrote:Why is no one quoting the rules? =p

Page....69? The IC entry specifically notes that if an IC has a special rule and joins a unit, the unit does not benefit from the special rule and vice versus.

Page 48, 'Independent characters joining & leaving units'; "Unless specified in the rule itself..."

And it's not. So they can't share the drugs. Selfish beggar.

Pain Tokens are still just Pain Tokens, and can be left with units... I don't see any good reason why not.

Necroagogo wrote:The phrase 'note that the effects aren't cumulative' puzzles me. Cumulative with what? It's one roll, army-wide to see what benefit eligible units get, right?

Please slap me if I'm being dense.

I don't think you're being dense. This is another unclear element in the DE codex.

It's possible that GW is saying that a unit with combat drugs that gets +1 strength and then accumulates 2 pain tokens to get furious charge would not get the additional +1 to strength.
But there's no way to be sure at this point.

Or they could have written the "cumulative" rule when you could have two ways of getting combat drugs, possibly.

Given how long this codex has been in development that chances are that there will be oddities in there...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or they could have written the "cumulative" rule when you could have two ways of getting combat drugs, possibly.

Didn't think of that Nosferatu! Would prevent attaching an IC with combat drugs to a unit with combat drugs and giving both the +1 bonus.
Thanks!

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or they could have written the "cumulative" rule when you could have two ways of getting combat drugs, possibly.

Didn't think of that Nosferatu! Would prevent attaching an IC with combat drugs to a unit with combat drugs and giving both the +1 bonus.
Thanks!

You probably didn't think of it because this thread has pretty well agreed that the IC can't share the rule, nor do joining ICs gain the unit's 'special rule' (wargear).

not unless they want to catch a disease lol

But an Arcon with drugs joining a Wych unit with drugs gets 2 pain tokens.. so it IS cumalative...
they all have FNP and furious charge...

the whole "results are not cumalative" line should have been left out!