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@Orlanth

I don't consider ammo carrying to be a flaw. All energy is indeed 'yawn' but with something like the Grasshopper, The choice of a LRM for a head is just kind of silly given its intended usage, and the truth that a single LRM5 is not going to give it much in the way of hitting power. That thing was meant to be up-close and personal. If you are hanging back firing your wimpy LRMs you will be outmatched by a Valkyrie, Whitworth, Dervish, Griffin heck the list goes on... all smaller mechs that would take you apart if you actually play outside the minimum range of that weapon instead of taking advantage of its close range brawler ability. Who really wants their Grasshopper hanging back launching 2 or 3 points of damage per turn when it can be unleashing hoppy zappy crazy hell just by closing in for a turn or two? It is mentioned in the technical readout that the strength and intent of the design is the heat efficiency and staying power, so while comparatively under-armed to other mechs in its class, its movement, jets, and medium laser spam make it ideal at 3 hexes, which rules the LRM launcher out completely when the mech is doing its job like it does best. When I used them (only a couple of times in group games mind you, so I am by no means an expert on them) I would just ammo-dump the LRM as soon as I got into ML range, just to be on the safe side.

In some mechs, ammo style weapons are just fine. Commandos come to mind, as does Zeus, as does Centurion. None of them keep it in the center torso either, and all of them are somewhat heat efficient and rely on their missiles and cannons heavily. I don't think of ammo as a failed mech, just where it's put and how it's used is a bit iffy. If there's no infantry on the map, just playing mechs versus mechs, who wants to risk an ammo explosion just for a pair of gimpy little machineguns? That's what the ammo dump ability is for. 2 tons wasted just to be dumped on your first turn so your warhammer doesnt blow up to a CT crit roll. Has anyone ever actually gone through 200 rounds of machinegun ammo in a game firing 2 per turn only once you get close enough? If you have, I salute your gaming endurance.

Hello again. I just wanted to say thank you for talking about Megamek. I have been playing it nonstop for several days. I was just wondering a couple of things in relation to the tabletop version.

First thing is, how close is Megamek to the actual game? Meaning, would I be able to jump into a real game now that I know how to play the PC version or are they vastly different?

Second thing is, I see the different time lines 3025, 3050, and so on... what do people normally play?

And lastly, you've already told me that BV is the perferred way people set up as opposed to tonnage or cost, but whats the "average" BV people play with for 4 or 5 mech games. And for that matter, do most players take only mechs or is there alot of support craft and infantry on the board?

I am sorry for so many questions, but I am really really liking this game! Been doing alot of random armies using on canon meks to get a feel for different configurations.

I think at most FLGS they play the modernized version, which is a lot more cheesed out than the stuff us old schoolers play (which is usually 3025-3050 era). As soon as clan technology hit the fan, a whole new can of worms opened. Newer players ate it up and older players hated it for the same reasons that 40k players hate "codex creep". MegaMek is a very good emulation of the actual board game though, at least at earlier tech levels. Things like NARC beacons, C3-equipped lances, and indirect fire tactics are a bit out of its league as an A.I. but the rules are true to the origional game. The modernized Btech is more miniatures-oriented and less of a board game, but the old school rules still apply. It isn't like 40k where they just change the rules every year or so with a new codex or rules release every few... all they really did was add more rules as the tech level was rising. More technology = more special rules you have to tack on. That's why a lot of us old timers prefer to keep it simpler.

The origional Battletech 3025 plus Citytech 3026 for the vehicle rules and the various tech readouts from that era were enough for a good board game and many people I have met or talked to online like to stay back in the dark ages because when the Clan stuff showed up, all the old rules started getting twisted:

it was hard to tell what equivalent a "Star" of clan mechs could be evenly matched against however many inner Sphere mechs due to the vast tech advantage of the clan stuff, instead of just playing lance versus lance all on the same tech level. That was, in many people's opinion, the beginning of the end.

But it was the future for battletech I guess. It kept the game going, kept it morphing into something new and (again, in many people's opinions) kind of an overblown marketing fix to a game that didn't really need fixing.

Careful when playing MegaMek that you keep your tech levels even, otherwise, no, it isn't a good trainer for playing the actual game. A 3065 mech with extralight engine and ferro fibrous armor and double heat sinks will be far different from its 3025 equivalent.

Another game that is good if you want to learn the real boardgame is called 'mechwar'... it is VERY dry and with minimal graphics and it runs off of dos. You cannot play against the computer, and every single phase of the game is run through JUST like the board game, so it isn't exactly action packed, but it is good practice at learning the strengths and weaknesses of most mechs. It also has a database of the exact stats of hundreds and hundreds of mechs. The interface is awkward, but the amount of data if you learn how to dig well enough, is phenomenal. That game is freeware too and a true labor of love from its creator, just given the amount of time he had to put into it cataloguing so many mechs and variants.

Guitardian wrote:@Orlanth

I don't consider ammo carrying to be a flaw. All energy is indeed 'yawn' but with something like the Grasshopper, The choice of a LRM for a head is just kind of silly given its intended usage, and the truth that a single LRM5 is not going to give it much in the way of hitting power. That thing was meant to be up-close and personal. If you are hanging back firing your wimpy LRMs you will be outmatched by a Valkyrie, Whitworth, Dervish, Griffin heck the list goes on... all smaller mechs that would take you apart if you actually play outside the minimum range of that weapon instead of taking advantage of its close range brawler ability. Who really wants their Grasshopper hanging back launching 2 or 3 points of damage per turn when it can be unleashing hoppy zappy crazy hell just by closing in for a turn or two? It is mentioned in the technical readout that the strength and intent of the design is the heat efficiency and staying power, so while comparatively under-armed to other mechs in its class, its movement, jets, and medium laser spam make it ideal at 3 hexes, which rules the LRM launcher out completely when the mech is doing its job like it does best. When I used them (only a couple of times in group games mind you, so I am by no means an expert on them) I would just ammo-dump the LRM as soon as I got into ML range, just to be on the safe side.

You are focusing way too much on the gamestats and not enough on the style. If you are going to calcultate it by points of damage at various range brackets you might as well just minimax.
Autocannon (for example) are good because they are fearsome shell spitters, even the AC/2. The fact that we know most autocannon suck is something we should ignore. Mechwarriors are not in possession of the stats, they have the mechs instead.
A head mounted LRM launcher is a trick shot weapon tied into the pilots occulus, its a nifty piece of gear suitable for a multirole mech like the Grasshopper. Which because it can jump can skirmish in certain conditions dancing around with a large laser and LRM 5, fearsome firepower. Furthermore if the foe happens to catch this 'skirmisher' they have hell to pay. My mechwarrior wants to know what all this three hexes and two or three points of damage are all about. Are you on drugs? His Grasshopper has a missile launcher with a 120 round bin capable of firing salvoes of five missiles, thats rather impressive yes. Many smaller mechs put that type of weapon in the chest!
Of course we all know the Grasshopper is an infighter most of the time with so many 5cm lasers why wouldnt it be. But the jumpjets, 8cm laser and missile rack open up opportunities to be exploited from time to time.

Vizion wrote:Second thing is, I see the different time lines 3025, 3050, and so on... what do people normally play?

Nothing is really 'normal' from where people play. I think most people will either play whatever they want (and ignore what year it is) or just play whatever we are currently up to in the time line (3085 as of... well as of today!). There are time periods that some groups prefer - I myself like 3058 and all that happened around that time - and there are groups that simply refuse to play anything past the Succession Wars and 3025.

It's a mixed bag really.

thanks guitardian and H.B.M.C, that helped me out alot. I was letting the computer random pick. I took out anything non-canon, but I didn't specify the age range so it was doing 2600 up, so some were more than a few centuries outdated.

I will add this into the discussion, I really like the idea of playing the old stuff, instead of "how many Lasers can I put on this thing??". Its kind of like if you picked up a comic book and everyone was Superman. Who was give a gak? Mek with flaws are Mek with character.

But at the same time, its a technology based game, so its supposed to advance. I loved the MechWarrior games, and any good Pilot is going to pimp his ride so to speak.

I am all for playing with restrictions or without them, but I guess in the likely hood I have to fight a 90 ton mech with 12 Pulse Lasers coming at me, I should have my own Laser Totem Pole of Doom too.

Sigh, war is no fun when everyone has a nuke...

@Orlanth agreed 100% about the funny odd LRM in the grasshopper.. from the role-playing point of view it absolutely has a place, and our mechwarrior is not exactly thinking in hexes and range bracket/damage ratios like his god-like controller looking up from above the action. Still, as gamers these thoughts natural cross our mind as we play whether we like it or not. It's like deliberately trying to be bad at chess. You just can't NOT see things and pretend you dont notice them in your decision making.

@Vizion... I like what you said about most mechwarriors wanting to 'pimp their ride' and agree. When playing in a 1 off game scenario I would prefer using the canon mechs and established legal variants, but playing a more campaign-style game where you keep the same pilot and mech between battles, we would gradually get to upgrade a little here or there. Some things are just absurd and you have to look at the pics to figure out what may or may be possible. Replacing an arm mounted autocannon with an arm mounted large laser pockmarked with heat sinks is one thing. Re-routing the amunition feeds across the torso or replacing torso mounted weapons in general is, from a roleplay point of view, stretching it a bit.

Remember a mech is a lot more complicated than its stats on paper. There's a lot of strange and hard-to-fix technology involved in routing weapons and myomer bundles to the neurohelmet, configuration of jumpjets, fusion reactor power plants and gyros, all that wierd stuff we don't really understand because it doesn't exist (yet!) so I imagine "pimping your ride" would be more tricky than it seems on paper for the actual techs that have to work on it. It's one thing to replace a medium laser with a flamer for instance, but removing it from the torso, making room for it to be mounted in the head, and routing another feed of Autocannon ammo in the hole where it used to be would be much more complicated. That is all from a roleplaying style of approach to the game where that kind of consideration is taken. Our happy little high school group years ago had a kind of 'referee' like dungeonmaster who arbitrated just what we could salvage and realistically mount on our mechs. Replacing LRMs with SRMs is one thing, replacing them with a PPC is totally different as the weapons are simply mismatched in shape. The LRM15 from a Thunderbolt could easily be switched with the LRM10 from a Griffin, just as the pictures suggest, but it would be hard to use one of those barrel-cannon style launchers in the torso of an archer as an internal mount. May the pictures be your guide when it comes to customization. My Crusader "Lionheart" (cheesy I know but I was 15) ended up 5 tons heavier over the course of our 2 or 3 years playing the same mercenaries campaign due to adding the LRM launcher from a captured Thunderbolt and riddled with heat sinks. Armor plate is easy to add or remove as are certain weapons, heat sinks, but let the pictures be your guide. Btech is visualized with imagination and played with mathematical probability curves, but without the 'realism' of what is imagined, we may as well just be rolling dice.

Vizion wrote:
But at the same time, its a technology based game, so its supposed to advance. I loved the MechWarrior games, and any good Pilot is going to pimp his ride so to speak.

That fun for a PC game but its not batletech. It is forgivable because your character is expected to reguarly pull off impossible wins in a similar manner to Kai Allard-Liao, so you need any edge you can get.

However please remember that the mech outfitting gives weapons options equal to the versatility of omnitechs while also allowing armour tonnage, jump range and engine rating to be swapped. While such changes are possible amongst private mech owners in the Inner sphere the process would take weeks to plan. Clans ironically for all their interchangability of weapons forfeit much of their advantage with the set configurations everyone is expected to keep to. We know you can stray beyond them if you have the will, but very few try to buck the system this way. Only Aidan Pryde comes to mind, and Nataaha Kerensky, both were mavericks who didnt bother with configurations, Aidan Pryde was a complete oddball and not only ignored configurations but got the Falcon Guards to join him in this, hence eveyone in the unit being equipped with jump jets. All ther mechs can but many designs will not let you, if configurations are allowed to get in the way.

Please do not expect the same sort of levity in most Battletech games that you see in Mechwarrior. We could put in a general excption for the Dark Age because if you have a mech then anything goes.

The old MW Roleplaying game was so much fun when mixed with the tabletop game.

When we really got the RPG group together our campaign started at appx 3030. Many good times were had -- me in my Rifleman (Still an all time favorite of mine), the lance leader in a Warhammer, and rounded out with a Shadow Hawk and a Jenner.

We didn't care (well, didn't even know) what the good mechs vs back mechs were. The custom salvage mods were awesome too -- the Jenner pilot was so excited when he got to upgrade to a salvaged Griffen that was missing the PPC

Thanks for the info. If money wasn't so tight I would start making purchases for this game. I am going to check out the local Battletech group in my area this week as they get together at the same shop I play 40k at. But I am still trying to pay for all the things I still need for that.

But I will be there soon, this is cheap to get into if I am looking at it all correctly compared to Warhammer.

Vizion wrote:
But I will be there soon, this is cheap to get into if I am looking at it all correctly compared to Warhammer.

Yes, it is ridiculously cheaper, since you don't actually need minis to play Battletech. As long as you have some sort of counter that identifies what the unit is and what way it is facing, you can play on mapsheets without a problem.

Mattlov wrote:

Vizion wrote:
But I will be there soon, this is cheap to get into if I am looking at it all correctly compared to Warhammer.

Yes, it is ridiculously cheaper, since you don't actually need minis to play Battletech. As long as you have some sort of counter that identifies what the unit is and what way it is facing, you can play on mapsheets without a problem.

For a miniatures gamer (i.e. someone here) cardstock asnd maps just wont cut it.

Buy the intro boxset if you can find it 24 mechs inside. Otyherwise just see what turns up on eBay, and mechs will do, the more the merrier. Divide your mechs into IS and Clan and then allocate them as needed.

For terrain look for Heroscape, buy as much Heroscape terrain (dump the game) as you can find on eBay, junk shops etc

You can play this game with a pen, some notebook paper, and a couple of dice and counters (which you can also make from notebook paper). It is played for the mind-excersise, not the visuals. It's nice to get your mech in a figure form and snazzy terrain and all and paint it all customized, but not really necessary. Battletech matches don't involve 'best army composition' or 'best painted army' scoring or any of that stuff GW competitions have. It's just about who wins. If the basic game comes with mapsheets and standup cardstocks, then that's good enough. It's just more fun to get the actual mech model and paint it for its own character... but that is not a necessity, just a fun thing to do.

random mech rolls, I used to love when I rolled up an Catapult, Trebuchet, or a Phoenix hawk. I loved them even more in 3050. When I got to yank off the axe for a pair of LRM 15.
And i agree with you Guitardian, a mech is far more complicated to evaluate than it appears on paper. On 4 separate occasions I literally smoked an Awesome with a Firestarter. Id charge into the forests, set them on fire and lure the big mech in close to keep the heat on. Im a huge fan of taking the light mechs against the heavy mechs. My brother built the Chain I mentioned earlier to kick my ass when I was running around in a locust 2c, or a Puma. He built it, he kicked my ass with it. I tried it and I loved it. It looks cheesy on paper. I agree, I had to lose to that thing almost 50 times before I would even acknowledge it was a good mech. Try it.
Its a great mech to 'play' with. Call me crazy but if the game wasnt fun it wouldnt have lasted as long as it has.
The Clans are cheesy, they are also fun. Their omnis are pretty good, but their second line mech were Great. Star League designs with model refits, I can understand people who got in before I did not liking the Clans. But I love them, their fluff, their flavor. They were to me just plain fun.
My very first game was a 3025 Firestarter, against a Kraken on the Ice fields Solaris map. I was roasted before I crossed half the field, I digested the game. I learned to play, and I played the same guy again in a duel in a pair of Galahad, on a desert plain two weeks later. I kicked his ass. But above all I had fun. I played Clans for the most part, and only in the last 8 years or so really enjoyed playing Inner Sphere.
The Wardog, the Komodo, the Bandersnatch, the Apollo, the Grim Reaper. Love them all. The Fireball, fun at speed man. The Dervish, the Crusader, the Ostroc, the Locust and Wasp oh man the fun Ive had with these absolute pieces of crap. I love clans, but sometimes being armed with a shortest range weakest piece of junk energy weapon and protected by a toilet paper rolls worth of armor made you adapt to the mechs weaknesses. That was fun, but my idea of fun was also to take a Warhammer 2c against my brother in his five fingers of death ( Hollanders) was fun too.
I love battle tech, I got the models with the crappy testor paint that more than a decade later hasnt chipped or faded. I love it.

all of mine were done in testors too. it was the de facto modeling paints before polly-s acrylics. and yeah none of them have chipped a bit.

I have to thank you guys again. Not only for getting me to look into the classic battletech game, but getting me back into the universe itself. Sarna.net is an awesome place to read about each mech, event, group, or timeline. I went to the shop for 40k saturday and brought this game up later in the night when we were all sitting around talking, and I was surprised how many people said they still mechs sitting at home, or how much they used to love playing.

Three of us agreed that we would pick the game up, and there is already a group that plays every other week from what I was told by the guy who owns the place. He said he used to play it too and love it. There are around 5 guys that meet up for it, so maybe with the 3 of us joining in we can get them to come weekly and possibly expand the group some after that.

They all play the newest rule set from what I was told, so I guess thats 3085 now. Is that only downloadable? I was up there today and was told the only thing he had coming new for battletech was the hexpack on the 4th.

I have been putting together squads based on tonnage, point value, etc and don't want to get set on a design if the new rules gak it all up.

Oh, and a shout out to the Battlemaster. Played all assault mechs with nearly equal BV, first 4 on 4 then 4 on 5, and he alone scored 7 of the 9 kills. Simply amazing.

And for some reason, I really really want to field a Raven. Just always loved that little guy running around, even if he isn't going to do much as firepower goes.

Vizion wrote:
And for some reason, I really really want to field a Raven. Just always loved that little guy running around, even if he isn't going to do much as firepower goes.

Probably a Mech Commander 1 affliction, it happens.

BAWTRM wrote:

Vizion wrote:
And for some reason, I really really want to field a Raven. Just always loved that little guy running around, even if he isn't going to do much as firepower goes.

Probably a Mech Commander 1 affliction, it happens.

I have seen a stock 3050 Raven defeat a Thunder Hawk in single combat. It was AMAZING.

Well, considering in Battletech, it's possible to one hit kill any mech with any weapon, I am sure that every mech has been defeated by every other mech at one point or another

Just like the story in the Challenge magazine about the Afterburner taking out an Atlas.

The MechCommander game had an great flaw to exploit in it. I don't remember what number it was it was years ago... but it was the one with the Raven in it. There's a mission very early in the game so you're running around with little Commandos and blowing up some facility or other, then you have to get back to the dropship. On your way back a MadCat starts chasing you. The intent here is to just get away because the thing is mighty and just chasing after you. However if you station one of your mechs to blow up the fuel cans as it runs by them on the way to the dropship, bang! Now you have a Madcat salvage of weapons and if your lucky, the actual chassis itself, this in one of the first few missions in the game. I don't think the designers intended for us to have such a powerful mech so early in the game, but then again, maybe they made it possible on purpose just to see if anyone would pick up on it instead of just running to the dropship like the mission criteria told us to do.

the old PC games were pretty cool werent they?
Mech warrior 3 was my fave. I loved how the game seemed to integrate every aspect of the table top game into it and then let you run around in your own mech design.
I never did get death from above to work right in that game though.
I had mech commander 1-2, i wish i could still use them. My new tower has vista and wont touch anything that old. Add to that im not computer savy enough to jury rig it so i can still play it.
Bummer but oh well.
Hey Guitardian
Would you take an 3050 Archer and a 3050 Raven against into combat against 5 Hollanders on a jungle world?
I know its a silly question but I love geeking out about Battletech.

That would be a wierd matchup. If the Raven does the targetting and the archer just sits back doing IF, the Hollanders trudging through dense terrain. It has a lot of ammo. Just don't lose the raven.

Yeah geeking out on battletech old school is quite amusing for me too since I really only played it heavily back when I was in high school. I'm 35 now, so there's quite an age gap between the game they do nowadays and the one I grew up geeking out to... but I reminisce about old matchups, play computer sims, remember past battles with old friends each with a randomly assigned mech and pilot and just expected to deal with it.

One of my favorites was a Commando who popped a battlemaster in the head with a shot and made the pilot pass out, fail his unconsciousness roll... the odds there are up there with rolling up the perfect D&D character.... hahahaa... never drink while driving.... the rest of my lance dudes my buddies on my team moved in and blew the gak out of it while I ran my lightly armored ass the hell out of there, but the ref still gave me the kill credit. Even when your mech sucks, you just figure out how to make it work, or hope for the dice gods. Those are the best games.

Guitardian wrote:The MechCommander game had an great flaw to exploit in it.

That wasn't a flaw, that was the intent. The Mad Cat in the game's third (it was third, right?) mission was there as a very big threat that you could either deal with, losing most of the 'Mech, or risk fighting, and possibly salvage.

Given it was a Mad Cat W (ie. the 'More Guns' variant in MC1), it was quite a danger to your little band of Light and Medium 'Mechs.

You couldn't really fight that Mad Cat, it was armed with Clan PPCs, any shot would most likely destroy the location of the puny mech it hit. Blowing up the gas storage containers was indeed the way. However, if the Mad Cat blew up because of that it usually ended up unsalvageable, or otherwise without any of its nice weaponry in working order.
The best result was the gas explosion cripppling it and then swarming it with your mechs and taking it apart. If you were able to salvage it then, you would have a fearsome mech indeed. It wasn't easy though, I believe I had to try 15-20 times to actually obtain it. This was on my second play through, I just ran the first time.

It sure makes many of the follow up missions rather easy but it surely doesn't mean a cake walk up to completing the game. Once other front line Clan mechs join the fray things change again. Also, you had to watch out for shots destroying your nice Clan weaponry.

I have never had to fight against Daishi but I'm running a sim right now of a whole lance of IS 3025 tech level mechs versus it... Commando, Centurion, Warhammer, Zeus... The Daishi is mopping up and none of them are holding up at all to the ridiculous firepower it just bathes them in. It's pretty amusing watching them strive and hope for the crit when they are just being blown apart as this thing just sits there. This is why I don't like clan tech. The 200 tons versus 200 tons sort of matchups just don't apply any more when a single mech can take an entire lance apart without batting an eyelash.

That's because a Daishi carries in one arm what most Inner Sphere Heavy 'Mechs carry on their entire body.

And it has two arms.

Yup. Daishi won. No contest. Its worst injury was a damaged leg actuator so I guess it must have limped away a bit afterwards. It blasted both legs off the commando in one turn, it took down the warhammer's leg in two turns, the Zeus took a bit longer but wasn't doing much damage in return as it was getting its arms blown off and stumbling around with a gimp leg. Centurion seemed to be its primary target, probably because the A.I. noticed that there was a medium armored AC/10 on the board, so that guy was the first to get hosed. Those IS guys never stood a chance and the Daishi only moved once, just to position for a fire angle.

Again, this is why I don't like clan tech.

To be fair, wouldn't it make more sense to run 3050 IS mechs against the Daishi? Isn't running 3050 Clan mechs against 3025 IS mechs kind of like running Fokker Triplanes against P-40 Warhawks? If you don't like Clan tech, okay fair enough, but it just seems kind of strange to say you don't like Clan tech because they can rock mech designs that are 25 years older than they are.

Also, I bet the bot never even tried to get the lance into close combat. That is how you win in a fight like that, kick the damn Dire Wolf's legs off or punch in it's head.

Kicking route works a little better, because it WILL eventually fail a piloting check.

I wish I knew a was to post a replay of the match.

The bot for the IS wasn't really that bad, just completely outclassed. But FOUR MECHS!? The only thing Zeus is good for is staying at a distance, so it wasn't about to close given its weapons array. Centurion plodded foreward predictably but just couldn't hold out long enough to get there since all the fire was directed at it first. Maybe if the Daishi hadn't been making it plan A to get rid of it first it could have done some damage. The Commando performed predictably too, sort of skirting around the edges, but once the Centurion was knocked out, all it took was 1 turn and Daishi put a stop to that. Besides, what's a 25 tonner who can't jump really going to accomplish trying a punch at a gigantic hundred tommer, other than get whacked with a single punch? I think the bot was smart not to try engaging in hand-to-hand... but in the defense of the IS bots, their only assault mech was a long range fighter. Maybe next time I'll load up a Charger instead and let it just play battering ram.