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I don't hate Tau and Eldar.
In fact I would love to have every faction show up to improve our Meta.
I just think you need 3 Riptides.

I don't HATE Tau or Eldar per se, I hate their codices as GW as implemented them.

But forget them a minute. Compare the tactical marine to the standard GK troop. It's a joke.

Tac marines were totally outclassed in 5th as well. I saw a guy lose 52 tac marines to IG in two turns back in 5th. Leafblower was just the proto Riptide spam.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't HATE Tau or Eldar per se, I hate their codices as GW as implemented them.

But forget them a minute. Compare the tactical marine to the standard GK troop. It's a joke.

Tac marines were totally outclassed in 5th as well. I saw a guy lose 52 tac marines to IG in two turns back in 5th. Leafblower was just the proto Riptide spam.

Yes, but when was the las time you saw a leafblower or normal Grey Knight Troops Choices.
As far as The Guard, I saw a 50 man guard blob vanish to one Lone Wolf in one assualt phase.

Martel732 wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No. Marines can't kill what *sniper kroot* can. I'm not comparing their killing power to Riptides. I've never done that.

Although Riptides reduce their defenses to that of a grot. That's a problem. I addressed all this above.

No but ultimately you keep complaining about how "Marines can't kill things x unit can". Not everyone plays against some of these jerkbag stupidly overpowered lists where everything dies unless you take a jerkbag stupidly overpowered list. Some of us play games for fun and when we play games for fun were not concerned with the math behind our units as long as they do something!

I guess this summarizes why I hate tactical squads and you don't care. If you are going to take units for fun or looks, and nothing else, then the rules behind them don't matter to you at all.

Players, by the way, are not "jerkbags" for making a strong list. It's GW's fault that the units aren't balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"True we are not playing in thoise enviroments, and from what I am seeing I don't want to. I don't want to HAVE toplay Taudar to be competitive.
Since we don't have Taudar in our current Meta we dont have to optimise every sinlge point.
That does not make me Invalaid for most armies.
If you have noticed I stoped Defending Marines vs Taudar. If we got a Taudar or even a good Tau or Eldar player in our local Meta I would be going back to back to my Dark Angels Power Feild SPAM and to be honest probably stop having fun."

Now we are getting some where. If tactical squads were balanced against other troop choices and other units in general, you wouldn't have to stop having fun if someone decided to play Eldar.

On the flip side, it's bad for Eldar players to have to worry about pissing off groups like yours. Any given list should have options to take on anything another list might field. That is not the case, and so we have disconnects like the one in this thread.

My tac marines are being turned into road pizza by Xeno firepower. In my return shooting phase, the tac marines basically are shooting back spitballs in comparison. This is not the case in your meta, but legally someone could come in and start doing just this. Then, for th sake of your fun, you'll be wishing tac marines could gun down MCs like sniper Kroot. Or do SOMETHING against those kinds of lists other than die.

First off I said "Fun" as in they work well but I enjoy fielding them. And exploiting the hell out of Lists flaw is GW'S FAULT!?

If you are running an OP insta-kill TM list than it's not so much GWs fault as much as it's yours. And we have 2 Eldar players at my FLGS who run lists that are not OP as crap.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't HATE Tau or Eldar per se, I hate their codices as GW as implemented them.

But forget them a minute. Compare the tactical marine to the standard GK troop. It's a joke.

Tac marines were totally outclassed in 5th as well. I saw a guy lose 52 tac marines to IG in two turns back in 5th. Leafblower was just the proto Riptide spam.

Yes, but when was the las time you saw a leafblower or normal Grey Knight Troops Choices.
As far as The Guard, I saw a 50 man guard blob vanish to one Lone Wolf in one assualt phase.

I still see IG leafblower lists. They just have a few less blowers and more Vendettas. And I've seen GK troops in GK lists.

It's hard for the Lone Wolf to kill 50 guardmen when he's shot dead.

Yes, but I have still ssen it.

And as far ast the Guard taking out a list in 2 two turns, take that barrage and aply it to any other army.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes, but I have still ssen it.

And as far ast the Guard taking out a list in 2 two turns, take that barrage and aply it to any other army.

Since the barrages had high ST and AP 3 or better, other armies would lose the same amount *models* but less over all *points*. This is why meq are absolutely terrible against lists that can kill them quickly through the 3+ save.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes, but I have still ssen it.

And as far ast the Guard taking out a list in 2 two turns, take that barrage and aply it to any other army.

Since the barrages had high ST and AP 3 or better, other armies would lose the same amount *models* but less over all *points*. This is why meq are absolutely terrible against lists that can kill them quickly through the 3+ save.

I have agread that they could be cheeper, but points don't make them Bad, just overcost.

Unless you clasify all overcost units as "Sucky"

"Unless you clasify all overcost units as "Sucky""

I do. That is the very definition of a sucky unit. Bad point/efficacy ratio. In fact, this is what I've been claiming all along. Tactical marines don't PLAY or FEEL like 14 pt models. They get picked wholesale like 6 pt models now. And shoot back worse because they have less than half the shots. The difference between BS 3 and BS 4 is not that big, especially when you are looking at models that cost as much as marines. Maybe we should be looking at BS 5 for marines in the new reality of 40K.

Similarly, OP units are by definition undercosted, because they bring more to the table than their points would suggest.

Martel732 wrote:
"Unless you clasify all overcost units as "Sucky""

I do. That is the very definition of a sucky unit. Bad point/efficacy ratio.

Similarly, OP units are by definition undercosted, because they bring more to the table than their points would suggest.

Then I will restate that this thread is named wrong.

You could also opend up with

Tactical Marines Suck becouse they are overcost instead of they can't do thier job.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Unless you clasify all overcost units as "Sucky""

I do. That is the very definition of a sucky unit. Bad point/efficacy ratio.

Similarly, OP units are by definition undercosted, because they bring more to the table than their points would suggest.

Then I will restate that this thread is named wrong.

You could also opend up with

Tactical Marines Suck becouse they are overcost instead of they can't do thier job.

But making them cheaper just lets you bring more models that lack efficacy. A better solution is to bring their efficacy up to 14 pts/model. They need to legitimately be worth 3 guardmen or 3 boyz. And they just aren't. They're just packages that make it easier for the Tau to take your points away, because you give up 3X the points when they pie plate you. If the marines could KILL the models killing them, the problem wouldn't be so bad. But tactical marines really can't take any dangerous unit off the board. This makes them ignorable and an army tax. Sniper Kroot, on the other hand, have a whole category they can kill. See the difference? All the fru fru grenades and crap don't matter.

Martel732 wrote:
If the marines could KILL the models killing them, the problem wouldn't be so bad. But tactical marines really can't take any dangerous unit off the board.

This is what I am disgreing with, They do KILL Models, at least everything I shoot them at. So they can't kill off 30 models a turn, They have Never been able to do that.

Perhaps deleting Tau would be the only way.

Seriously though asides from giving marines snipers or all special weapons to deal with mega threats, they will NEVER amount to the effectiveness that is Kroot.

Edit: Hows about a Marine vs guard comparison, or even orks.

 Desubot wrote:
Perhaps deleting Tau would be the only way.

Seriously though asides from giving marines snipers or all special weapons to deal with mega threats, they will NEVER amount to the effectiveness that is Kroot. The fact that the elite human troops can never match the effectiveness of some slave race of an upstart empire is INSANE.

Edit: Hows about a Marine vs guard comparison, or even orks.

Why can't we compare to Kroot? Because the Tau just magically get to have troops that do something? That's why the whole system is cracked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the marines could KILL the models killing them, the problem wouldn't be so bad. But tactical marines really can't take any dangerous unit off the board.

This is what I am disgreing with, They do KILL Models, at least everything I shoot them at. So they can't kill off 30 models a turn, They have Never been able to do that.

I don't want them killing 30 models. I said a dangerous UNIT. That might be a tank. That might be an MC. That might be terminators. Other lists have troops that can handle at least some of these threats. Tac marines can only shoot weak infantry at close range that has been demeched. They can't crack tanks, can't threaten MCs, aren't a threat in HTH. What kinds of units *that you expect to see* do you think tacs are a threat to? Because my BA ASM are laughing at you in a world of dire avengers and sniper Kroot.

No im saying kroot are retardedly broken and should be nerfed. but comparing ANYTHING to kroot will look awful.

Im fairly sure half the complaints would go away if kroot returned to no sniper rounds. (as to compare kill power vs)

 Desubot wrote:
No im saying kroot are retardedly broken and should be nerfed. but comparing ANYTHING to kroot will look awful.

Im fairly sure half the complaints would go away if kroot returned to no sniper rounds. (as to compare kill power vs)

But they exist, and they are the new bar for troop comparison. Once a unit has been broken, rebalancing must take place across the game. That is what balanced games do. Or remove the broken unit, but there are too many offenders. Helldrake. Jetseer. Riptide. Kroot. Wave Serpent.

So we are back to Tacticals suck because "Tau"

Would nerfing Tau bring back tactical to usefulness?

At least for troop. instead of raising 9/10 units up why not bring the 1 (kroot) back down?

 Desubot wrote:
So we are back to Tacticals suck because "Tau"

Would nerfing Tau bring back tactical to usefulness?

At least for troop. instead of raising 9/10 units up why not bring the 1 (kroot) back down?

No, because tacticals aren't good against dire avengers or even BA ASM. BA ASM run them over like little chumps.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
So we are back to Tacticals suck because "Tau"

Would nerfing Tau bring back tactical to usefulness?

At least for troop. instead of raising 9/10 units up why not bring the 1 (kroot) back down?

No, because tacticals aren't good against dire avengers or even BA ASM. BA ASM run them over like little chumps.

Blood Angel Tactical Squad run over normal Tactical Squad?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
So we are back to Tacticals suck because "Tau"

Would nerfing Tau bring back tactical to usefulness?

At least for troop. instead of raising 9/10 units up why not bring the 1 (kroot) back down?

No, because tacticals aren't good against dire avengers or even BA ASM. BA ASM run them over like little chumps.

Blood Angel Tactical Squad run over normal Tactical Squad?

Blood Angel Assault Marines. It's right there in the post you quoted.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
So we are back to Tacticals suck because "Tau"

Would nerfing Tau bring back tactical to usefulness?

At least for troop. instead of raising 9/10 units up why not bring the 1 (kroot) back down?

No, because tacticals aren't good against dire avengers or even BA ASM. BA ASM run them over like little chumps.

Blood Angel Tactical Squad run over normal Tactical Squad?

Blood Angel Assault Marines. It's right there in the post you quoted.

Sorry I am not use to ASM as Assualt Marines.

I have not seen Assualt Marines "Roll Over Them", but If you let them get the assualt off first you will lose.

Martel732 wrote:

1) Rise of Xeno firepower that makes meqs die just as fast as Orks; no armor save, no cover save mechanics. This makes ATSKNF MUCH less useful, despite what Xeno players want to claim. I've voluntarily pretended the rule didn't exist for games and notice no difference because my marines are DYING not running away.

2) Crappy marine transports. Dire Avengers bring a WS. Tac marines bring a Rhino.

3) Crappy Imperial weapons. I'm sure a balancing factor for the tac squad is supposed to be the special and heavy weapon. The problem is that Imperial heavy weapons kinda suck.

4) Tac marines fold in CC like cheap deck chairs. Especially on a per point basis. This is anti-fluff and really diminishes their "tactical" ability.

5) The bolter's maximum firepower zone leads to item 4 which gets the squad killed. Also, can't assault after using the bolter, which leads to item 4.

6) Point sink. They are STILL more expensive than most other troops, so marines have more invested in a unit that basically does nothing for the reasons listed above. Marines can't afford dead weight.

Okay cool, thanks, so I want to give my opinion on each in order.

1) S6 AP3 pie plates yeah, that's for killing marines, some weapons are designed to kill specific troops the Riptides main gun is bad news for elite troops. However against the volume of fire units you mention it takes 3 wounds to 1 to kill a marine over an ork which currently is 18pts of Ork or 12-15pts of gaunt/guardsman type trooper. I'm gonna talk about ATSKNF lower.

I think marines are victims of their own success. GW flooded the market with so many marine lists that killing a 3+ save is something you need in spades, add in that the tourney meta is biased toward small elite armies because of restrictive time limits and army transportation. As such you want units that can kill small elite forces so people spam Riptides, Plasma Hell-turkeys etc over anything else because it's what they need.

This is why I say the tourney meta is not a good source for balance. If I play a green tide, a table covered in boyz of all flavours I can't slow play him and win on turn 3 because he never got close. I have to beat him over 5-7 turns and he will get to close and i need to be able to weather the tide. As such the tourney meta skews what units are good and which are poor.

2) The Serpent is better, it's one of those over line line units that needs bringing down so i'll give you that, however, 10 troopers in a rhino is a lot cheaper than 10 troopers in a WS. They each have their uses, one just has more.

3) Not sure I agree on this Lascannon is better than Bright Lance, H. Bolter is about even with Shuriken cannon (longer ranger, better base AP, lower strength, no rend) I think Imperial heavy weapons keep pace with Eldar. The Eldar do have more fancy toy guns however this is true. The Tau core stuff too, Autocannon is a better Missile pod (I think it has longer range) Plasma Gun overheats but is stronger than a Plasma Rifle, once again the toys change it.

4)Ooooh, okay so here I have to disagree. Marines are more durable even by point than any of those units outside of AP2/3 melee (which is most of it) *and* ATSKNF that you feel is so worthless means no marine has ever been run down in combat. Marines will never lose a combat to an MC, fail their morale and lose the other 75% of their squad. The enemy has to kill you to the last man, that's huge doubly so now No Retreat! no longer exists. It's even stronger here than against shooting.

5) The bolter, I did already talk about this but only compared to Eldar weapons where it has range at the price of killing power. Against Tau and Kroot snipers it is worse but the trooper holding the gun is more durable, more skilled, more likely to hold in melee, has arguably better transport options (I like the Devilfish personally) it's very hard to say and put a price on those things.

6)Hmmm, they are 1 pt more than Avengers, a point cheaper than Grey Hunters (I believe). Fire Warriors and Kroot are tricky as you say, they are such different model base stats and costs it's hard to tell. A Fire Warrior is his gun, without that he has poor morale, moderate durability, terrible CC potential and not flexible due to the absence of specials and heavies.

Huge post, stopping now but the crux of the point is that outside of AP3/2 weapons a marines durability is envious the problem is the frequency at which you are hit by them which is a tourney play thing more than anything else as only a small selection of armies will ever show up there so everyone can focus on elite killing.
The Wave Serpent is the save spammer but that hits everyone just as hard, it's part of the reason it's too good as we already discussed however.

Edit: The WS bit at the end.

1) Orks can get cover for free. You can have so many Orks that they can't ignore cover against all of them.

2) Rhinos seem good at giving up first blood. Little else. I guess it saves you from one volley from one Eldar unit. Yay.

3) Imperial heavy weapons suffer from cost and from platform as well. Especially in marine lists. Most of the platforms for say the assault cannon become incredibly overcosted once you pay for the assault cannon.

4) ATSKNF has never saved me from MCs. It just makes take a bit longer to kill me to the man. Of course, this works out perfectly, because I have less to kill. Tac marines do fold in CC like little punks. I've been watching it happen since 2nd edition. This never changes.

5) The bolter sucks because it can't engage MCs like the Tau or Eldar weapons. And it's an assault weapon for a list that's try to do shooting and assault. Fail.

6) The dire avenger can deliver maximum payload for 6" further away, and still move after that? And rend. Yeah, that troop should SO totally be cheaper than a tac marine. Again, the fact that Xenos have made ATSKNF basically useless through mass fire and/or AP 2 tricks really makes the tac marine look bad compared to more lightly armored troops. Krak grandes? Can't live to use em. Frag grenades? Can't live to use them. Bolt pistol? Can't beat anything in HTH and can't live to get there anyway.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Yep, they get that for 1 ppm. Dire Avengers still utterly outclass tacticals even with that, since they unlock Wave Serpents.

You need to look at everything a unit does.

Plus, battle focus + 2 shots at 18" is very very very powerful.

Next time, just remove Serpent Shield. Not replace or decrease it, just remove it. Completely. You'll need to play a few games to wrap your heads around it and sort target priorities and planned volumes of fire, etc.

Rhinos are great. Just don't put them in the open - they're not so hard to hide. Every tac squad that's not using drop pods should ride a rhino or razorback. It's not only protection, but also mobility which is even more important. Also, it's a moving blos with 11-11-10, 5+ cover when needed and just 35 pts cost.

I don't feel bikes being overcosted for gravguns platforms. Devastators are also good. Predators...well, i use them but they can't compete with the new fancy flyers and skimmers that everyone gets. Combat-squaded marines with a heavy weapon seem not bad and quite reliable backfield point-holders.

From what some of you write about atsknf, just try taking marines for 1 pt less and no atsknf if you think it's a pointsink. U'll see the difference.

Tactical marines ain't supposed to take down MCs. While i agree that bolters lack some killing power, i don't really know how to improve it not making it over-the top. I've suggested rapid fire 2/3 for +2 pts. That's a solid increase.

Regular tacticals are mediocre in cc. They're tough but can't deal enough damage. Adding a possibility to get a cc weapon for +1 pts like chaos marines have can be an answer. So you can get cc weapons on something that you think might need it.

A cool idea would be Bolter variants that perform differently from each other and could be exchanged with the standard model for free or for a slight upgrade. Could also lead to some nice differentiation between chapters, as maybe BA and SW get access to more assault oriented boltguns, whereas others would have access to salvo Bolters as have been so often suggested.

I don't support special ammunition though, that's a deathwatch thing.

Martel732 wrote:
1) Orks can get cover for free. You can have so many Orks that they can't ignore cover against all of them.

2) Rhinos seem good at giving up first blood. Little else. I guess it saves you from one volley from one Eldar unit. Yay.

3) Imperial heavy weapons suffer from cost and from platform as well. Especially in marine lists. Most of the platforms for say the assault cannon become incredibly overcosted once you pay for the assault cannon.

4) ATSKNF has never saved me from MCs. It just makes take a bit longer to kill me to the man. Of course, this works out perfectly, because I have less to kill. Tac marines do fold in CC like little punks. I've been watching it happen since 2nd edition. This never changes.

5) The bolter sucks because it can't engage MCs like the Tau or Eldar weapons. And it's an assault weapon for a list that's try to do shooting and assault. Fail.

6) The dire avenger can deliver maximum payload for 6" further away, and still move after that? And rend. Yeah, that troop should SO totally be cheaper than a tac marine. Again, the fact that Xenos have made ATSKNF basically useless through mass fire and/or AP 2 tricks really makes the tac marine look bad compared to more lightly armored troops. Krak grandes? Can't live to use em. Frag grenades? Can't live to use them. Bolt pistol? Can't beat anything in HTH and can't live to get there anyway.

1) Orks can get cover this is true but as has been pointed out repeatedly in Nid and Tau bashing threads theres a lots of ignores cover out there for people who want it. If you assumed permenant 5+ cover it's still 12pts of Orks for the same kill, not far from a tac marine.

2) One volley of fire assuming it destroys the rhino instantly, gives the squad mobility, blocks LOS as mentioned, which is something the Wave Serpent can't do as you can see under them.

3) Fair enough, I don't remember the points costs that well but in terms of effectiveness they compete. Platform is subjective though a guardian weapon requires 1 of 2 T3 5+ save models...

4) Come now, less to kill? Compared to Avengers you are talking about maybe 11 guys versus 10. If the MC wins by 3 the Marines take a 5-6 LD check, the Avengers a 6, if the marines fail they could care less they either regroup in combat or regroup just outside, those 7 guys are safe. The Eldar is an opposed Initiative test from losing the other 8 guys. ATSKNF is a huge buff. Maybe it's a meta thing, if all you are seeing is massed shooting then it's just a failed LD check auto rally (though not snap shotting is pretty cool) round my way where melee is a problem immunity to sweeping can save your life and tie up an MC for some time while they finish the job.

5) It's not an assault weapon any more than the Pulse Rifle. +1S doesn't magically make them able to engage MC's (apart from T8 obviously) and the marines access to special and heavy weapons over the Fire Warrior gives them far more MC killing potential in fact. Avengers are a bit different, the pseudo rend does give them more punch but at a shorter range on a less durable platform and they still lack AT options, swings and roundabouts. Both those units are dedicated infantry killers, Tac marines can choose weapons to engage a wider variety of targets.

6)Maximum payload maybe but the marine always gets first shot because he has a superior maximum range, hell he could easily get the first 2 shots if the Eldar can't summon a 6 on battle focus, the platform is less durable, has a more limited target selection and has to get closer, that's why they are cheaper. AP2 kills an Avenger too and there is much more AP4 or less than AP3 or less so everything you say allies to them too at 1pt less.
The issue falls if "cheaper is better" because universally true, it sounds like it may be in your meta but how many flamers do you see in the average opponents army compared to plasm/grav type options?

" where melee is a problem "

How is this possible in 6th? I can't hardly get into CC to take advantage of marine stats.

ATSKNF isn't even always desirable in CC, either. If an MC sweeps me in one turn, then I can finish it off with shooting. Maybe that's a Xeno philosophy, but it's not like marines are going to take them out in HTH anyway.

I've played a few games without using ATSKNF as a test and never really missed it. Again, my units are getting LD tests, they are getting put back in the model box. I play against a lot of tier 1 lists.

ATSKNF was a big thing for a long time, but now the firepower exists to make this rule almost irrelevant. I'll voluntarily play without it any time. I don't think it helps marine lists that much in an era where tabling is a serious concern. I mean, ATSKNF says "I"ll make you kill me to the last marine!" Opponents are like "I was going to do that anyway."

Do D-scythes count as flamers? I sure see those.

The only time you don't get to shoot it is if it finishes you off in an even number of turns, holding up a unit is a valuable thing. Even losing by a single point can cause an entire unit to be run down, not so for a space marine. You say you'd happily not have it while there are many armies that would kill for it.

Marines are S6 AP4 against MC's, they have one of the best chances among basic troopers to take them down. Against many Nids they will hit on 3's wound on 4's and against against daemons while they may hit on 5's often the GD types have weak saves.

Every squad that breaks off the table or is run down is one your opponent doesn't have to kill. I think many marines take for granted that if they stay more than one fall back move from the board edge they are guaranteed to rally and get back in the fight, other non-fearless troops cannot make such a claim and once they are under 25% their odds of coming back are very small indeed.

D-Scythe is a template but not a flamer, I'll take that as a no then on the flamers. That's a product of your meta, it is skewed toward marine murder that no-doubt sucks for you as a marine player but its also the reason I would hesitate to use it as an anecdote for balance requirements. If your meta had more pyromaniac players throwing down several units with cover ignoring AP4/5 flamer weapons (something my Guardians and Gaunts do suffer from) instead of plasma your marines durability would seemingly rise.

Tourney lists tend to be spam driven (You can use redundancy if you find spam offensive), they know their target due to the very limited pool from which these tourney draw their lists from and proceed to spam the unit the most efficiently murders them. Hence the 6-7 Wave Serpents, 3-4 Riptides etc's. In this meta elite troops take it in the teeth, that sucks but it's the way it is in competitive play. If your group are happy playing like that it there's nothing that can be done, are you absolutely positive there aren't more people sick of all lists being Tau/Eldar/Daemons you can't pull aside for games?

Why should people want to play inferior lists? I only play marines because that's the army I own. If this were Starcraft, and they nerfed a unit like the BA got nerfed, I just *wouldn't build it anymore*. But magically, all units in Starcraft actually have legitimate uses.

As I've said, I've voluntarily played several games w/o ATSKNF on my guys and it doesn't make a spit's worth of difference.

Why would Eldar/Tau bother with flamers? Tau can ignore cover with large blasts of death, and the Eldar simply use serpent shields or spam S6 unit armor or cover fails.

No, it's lists like my marines that have to pack in flamers. *I* use flamers, but Xenos usually don't care. Sure, I can do the suicide pod thing with flamers, but that's just more dead marines at the end of the day. Besides, flamers do nothing to Jetseer councils or Wave Serpents.